Posts by OHappyDay

3

questions.

by kilroy2 in

jw
friends

has anyone ever sat down and made a series of questions that we can print and hand out to the people we know,.

so that when the dubbers come to the door they can ask the right questions to make the little buggers scurry for cover.. i have made a couple and it does work.

but if we could all put our minds togeather we could make a very concise to the point question sheet that is easy for non former cult members to understand and use.

OHappyDay

Ask, "Do you have the holy spirit within you?"

If they say "No," since only the "anointed" have that privilege according to our doctrine, ask: "If you don't have the holy spirit within you, why are you preaching to me?"

In the New Testament, Christians are said to have the holy spirit within them, not merely to be "guided by" the spirit. It is an indwelling that Witnesses allow only to their "anointed." But the New Testament does not make such a distinction. In fact, the Bible says that Moses had the holy spirit within him, and Moses was not a member of the 144,000. So how can we say that only this group has the holy spirit within them?

4

The GB - Mystical?

by johnathanseagull in

.

twiddling thumbs at work here lol...........question................. is there still an "air" of mystique about the gb within the rank and file, you know the "they must be soooo spirtual" blah blah blah..................i can remember people being so in awe of them, to the extent of wanting to attend conventions that a member would be giving a talk, as though it meant something special, .............. or have the r & f realised that the decision making and day to day activities are generally done and conducted like any other board meeting i've attended in my work and in thousands of other companies.

jgull

OHappyDay

Hero worship isn't the worst of it. The Society also puts the GB in as the mediator between God and men, a role reserved in scripture for Jesus Christ only.

For example, in the latest Watchtower (09-01-03), the Protestant Reformation is blasted because "these churches continued to teach erroneous doctrines." But, so do we. That same article ("One True Christian Faith A Reality") erroneously states: "Individual congregations did not operate independently of one another. They all recognized the authority of a governing body in Jerusalem...consisting of the apostles and older men of the Jerusalem congregation."

The "proof text" quoted is from Ephesians, a book that was not written by the "governing body" but by an individual, the apostle Paul. Paul had his own disagreements with certain members of the Jerusalem "governing body." And he instructed the congregations to follow him only as he himself followed Jesus Christ, the true Head of the congregation.

44

Retractions in the Watchtower

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

.

every magazine, newspaper or other periodical i have ever read would from time to time print a retraction to correct mistakes in past articles.

any reputable publishing house does this.. has anyone ever seen a retraction printed in the watchtower, awake, or any other wts publication?.

OHappyDay

That hefty list of "clarifications" shows the arrogance of the policy of disfellowshiping people for disagreeing with WT speculations and dubious doctrine. Only a terroristic organization would instill such fear in its adherents that disagreement in the most minor of points jeopardizes a member's eternal future.

I will never forget the betrayal of having my long-held belief that the "higher powers" or "superior authorities" were Jehovah and Jesus casually overturned by the "new light" that they were really the secular governments! Of course, this "new light" was what old Satanic Christendom had all along!

5

Divorce....a concession of Moses?

by mizpah in

in jesus' discussion on divorce, he said that moses allowed more latitude about divorce to the sons of israel as a concession.

(matthew 19) jesus noted this this arrangement was not so from the beginning.

are we to understand that parts of the mosaic law aside from the 10 commandments were from moses rather than god?

OHappyDay

Just some random thoughts, not meant to be definitive:

The concession on Divorce is found at Deut. 24. All of Deuteronomy up to chapter 31 is one long discourse comprising "the words that Moses spoke to all Israel in the region of the Jordan in the wilderness." (1:1)

Of course, the Pharisees, whose religious descendants became the rabbis of today, considered as torah, or "law," both the written text and its interpretation (the "oral law").

Jesus accepted the Pharisees as those sitting "in Moses' seat" in his day. It was their deeds and traditions he objected to, not necessarily their core doctrines. Paul, another Pharisee, also contributed to the Christian corpus of doctrines. In a sense, both rabbinic Judaism and earliest Christianity were formed from a Pharisaic matrix.

Perhaps Jesus' comments merely suggest that a plain reading of Genesis makes it clear that "what God has joined together, let no man put apart." Therefore, the allowance of divorce, as promulgated by the Mosaic Law at Deut. 24, had to be a concession.

Moses was known to wrangle with God at times for the benefit of his (and His) stiff-necked people. Perhaps this is one of the things, though not specifically mentioned, that Moses wranged from the Eternal?

32

Need Help Witnessing to JWs

by HuskerMike in

i am new here, and am a christian.

i had a young man and mother attempt to sell jw to my wife, who agreed to listen but only when i am there.

we are meeting with them tomorrow.

OHappyDay

Doctrine brought me in, and doctrine will probably lead me out. What got me to thinking, just this year, was when I was with a Sister who made a return visit on an Evangelical. We thought this would be an easy call. Then the lady asked a question that blew me away:

"Do you have the holy spirit within you?"

An innocent question, true. But Witnesses are taught to believe that only the "anointed," the remnant of the 144,000 still on earth, have the holy spirit "within" them. But if we answered "No," the lady would then question why we were even there preaching to her! We couldn't say "Yes," because we were taught to believe that we were not among the "anointed."

So, for a while both of us were speechless.

Then the lady, discerning our distress, said simply but pointedly: "If you don't believe that the holy spirit is within you, I just feel so sad and sorry for you."

That ended the return visit. And began my active questioning of Watchtower doctrine.

11

Is the Watchtower's idea of preaching what Jesus had in mind?

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

what kind of preaching was jesus talking about in mathew 24:14?

it seems to me that jesus wanted christians to preach the hope of the resurrection to mankind.

nowhere in the bible, does it say that christians were to preach their own interpretation of bible prophecy as the wts does today.

OHappyDay

It is only recently that I appreciated what Romans 10:10 ("public declaration for salvation") really meant! The context (beginning with verse 8 and including verse 9) makes it clear that it is not what Witnesses preach, but a public declaration or confession that "Jesus is Lord!" and that he is the resurrected Savior. This is the "public declaration" that leads to salvation. It was right there all the time, but thanks to the Society's obfuscation, I did not see it previously.

To be true to Christianity, Witnesses must become more "evangelical," that is, we must give Christ his due in Jehovah's arrangement. It is passing strange to say that the New Testament was written for the "heavenly class" and then say that most of us are not of that class. If that were the case, surely God would have foreseen that, and provided an addition to the Scripture for our benefit. In the book studies, we are called "strangers" and "foreigners," as if some sort of afterthought in the scenario of salvation. We cannot even claim Jesus as our Mediator, we are as second-class citizens of heaven.

Jesus didn't preach any of that!!!

11

Is the Watchtower's idea of preaching what Jesus had in mind?

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

what kind of preaching was jesus talking about in mathew 24:14?

it seems to me that jesus wanted christians to preach the hope of the resurrection to mankind.

nowhere in the bible, does it say that christians were to preach their own interpretation of bible prophecy as the wts does today.

OHappyDay

mizpah, it seems we have come to some of the same conclusions in our reading of the scriptures. There is no indication in the NT that the average Christian was a "preacher," and Paul's encouragement to preach was given to elders like Timothy, and the work was shared by the apostles and the "some" who were given the church as "evangelizers."

The first-century C.E. world of the first Christians was a world of Jewish revolt against Rome, and door-to-door preaching would be difficult, to say the least. Neither the Jews nor the Gentiles were hospitable to visits by Christians. At some point, the Jews even pronounced a curse upon Christians in the regular synagogue service, to oust those Jewish Christians who were attending synagogue.

No doubt what we term today "informal witnessing" took place. But, according to historians and the earliest "church fathers," what impressed the pagans and drew people to Christianity, was what Christians did -- the exemplary and devoted lives they led -- rather than what they said.

Christian refusal renounce Christ by giving a pinch of incense to the emperor, and martyrdom in the arena spoke louder than any discourse. The commendation was, "See how they love one another! They would even die for one another!," not "What a fine sermon they preach!"

21

A real "Governing Body"?

by OHappyDay in

i'm sure the question has been asked before, but i can't help but wonder to what extent the first "governing body" was any way like the governing body today?.

is it not ironic that the apostle paul, who was not a member of the "governing body" was used by god to write most of the new testament?.

of the "governing body," only james and peter wrote anything of instruction letters to christians, one book for james and two for peter.. why, in addressing christians on life and conduct, did god apparently bypass the "governing body"?

OHappyDay

Ha, ha, sounds like a put-on to me. The vocabulary is not even Witness-speak. Sounds like a 1920s Bible Student or something.

Anyway, anybody can be self-anointed, self-consecrecated, and self-appointed to speak for God. That doesn't mean anything to God, no more than the babblings of the preachers who get up in the pulpit and proudly announce, "God spoke to me this morning."

The Watchtower Society taught me to question men and organizations. They did not have themselves in mind, but yes, I have to question them, too.

No organization died for me. Only Christ, so my allegiance is to him.

11

Is the Watchtower's idea of preaching what Jesus had in mind?

by Latin assassin from Manhattan in

what kind of preaching was jesus talking about in mathew 24:14?

it seems to me that jesus wanted christians to preach the hope of the resurrection to mankind.

nowhere in the bible, does it say that christians were to preach their own interpretation of bible prophecy as the wts does today.

OHappyDay

Your words seem reasonable. Though Matthew 24:14 says it was the good news or Gospel "of the kingdom" that would be preached, the kingdom message given by Jesus is not the one being preached today by Jehovah's Witnesses. And it is worth noting that in the parallel account found in Mark (13:10), it says only that "in all the nations the good news has to be preached first." No mention in Mark about "the kingdom." Luke's account (chapter 21) mentions only preaching that would be done "for the sake of my [Jesus'] name" and "because of my name." (verses 12 and 17)

Further, the book of Acts shows how Jesus' earliest disciples interpreted his words about preaching, and how they actually carried them out. Their focus is always on Jesus, Jesus, Jesus! The first verse of Acts is about Jesus, and the last verse of Acts (28:31) shows clearly that Paul's preaching of the kingdom meant "teaching the things concerning Jesus Christ."

By contrast, Jesus is often "missing in action" in the message of Jehovah's Witnesses.

21

A real "Governing Body"?

by OHappyDay in

i'm sure the question has been asked before, but i can't help but wonder to what extent the first "governing body" was any way like the governing body today?.

is it not ironic that the apostle paul, who was not a member of the "governing body" was used by god to write most of the new testament?.

of the "governing body," only james and peter wrote anything of instruction letters to christians, one book for james and two for peter.. why, in addressing christians on life and conduct, did god apparently bypass the "governing body"?

OHappyDay

Thanks for all the comments. It is clear from the Pauline epistles that Paul considered Jesus Christ to be the source of his Gospel, not any "governing body." (Gal. 1:11, 12, etc.) And where he disagreed with any putative ecclesiastical authority in Jerusalem, he was not loathe to publicly express it.

If such a situation existed today, no doubt Paul would be promptly disfellowshiped for "independent thinking"! The suppression of intellectual freedom among its members is perhaps the worst failing of the Watchtower Society. People should not have to wash away their right to think with the waters of baptism.