Posts by teejay

James Caputo had some serious questions that put the WTS in a bad light. He'd gathered damning evidence from the pages of the Watchtower. A judicial committee was convened. Here's an excerpt from
http://www.towerwatch.com/Testimonies/judicial_committee_meeting.htm:
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In 1889 [the Watchtower said]: "Be not surprised then when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the kingdom of God has already begun that it's pointed out In prophecy as do to begin the exercise of power in AD 1878. And that the battle of the great day of God almighty which will end in AD 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership has already commenced."

In 1889: " In the coming 26 years all present Governments will be overthrown and dissolved."

1894: " the old is quickly passing and the new is coming in. Now in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy are readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures nor could we change them if we would, they are we believe God's dates not ours. But bare in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of time of trouble."

1902: "In view of the strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the gentiles we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished by the end of AD 1914."

1915: "in view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the gentiles we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God will be accomplished near the end of AD 1915."

1915: "The gentile times prove that the present governments must all be overturned by AD 1915."

1917: "there shall be no slip up, Abraham should enter on the actual possession of his promised inheritance in the year 1925."

1917: "And the mountains were not found. Even the republics will fall in the fall of 1920. Every kingdom of earth will pass away, be swallowed up in anarchy."

1917: "Pastor Russell's mission …was to advise Christendom of its impending end … The trouble is due to the dawning of the day of Christ, the millennium. It is the day of vengeance, which began the world war of 1914, which will break out like a furious morning storm in 1918."

1917: " Also in the year 1918 when God destroys the Churches wholesale and the church members by millions, it shall be that any that escape shall come to the works of pastor Russell to learn the meaning of the down fall of Christianity."

1918: "Therefore we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful prophets of old. Particularly those named by the apostle in Hebrews 11 to the condition of human perfection."

1920: "Since other scriptures definitely fix the fact that there will be a resurrection of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We may expect 1925 to witness the return of these faithful men of Israel from the condition of the dead being resurrected and fully restored to perfect humanity and made the visible legal representatives of the new order on the earth. We must reach the positive and indisputable conclusion that millions now living will never die."

1925: "The scriptures clearly indicate the climax of the fall of Satan's empire and the full establishment of the messianic kingdom. This climax being reached by 1925, that marking the beginning of the fulfillment of the long promised blessings of life to the people millions now living on earth will be living then those who obey the righteous laws of the new arrangement will lie for ever. Therefore we can confidently say at this time that, millions now living will never die."

1922: "This chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present truth chronology stands in a class by itself. Absolutely and unqualifiedly correct."

1923: "1925 is definitely settled by the scriptures. The Christian has much more upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the scriptures reveal) upon which to base his faith in the coming deluge."

1924: " No doubt many boys and girls who read this book will live to see Abraham Isaac, Jacob, Joseph Daniel and those other men of old come forth from the glory of their better resurrection. Perfect in mind and body. It will not take long for Christ to appoint them to their post of honor and authority as his earthly Representatives."

1924: "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of the truly consecrated child of God, that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874."

1925: " But all the enemies of the cause of present truth in the earth are fervently hoping that the Bible Students will not be so successful in 1925 in looking for the right thing at the right time, as they were in 1914. If they are however it is the other fellow who will have to do the explaining and not we."

We arrive on the date of 1925 and true to form: " It is expected that Satan will try to inject into the minds of the consecrated the thought that 1925 should see an end to the work. The difficulty was that the friends inflated their imaginations beyond reason and that when their imaginations burst asunder they were inclined to throw away everything."

Later that year: "The year 1925 is here with great expectations Christians have looked forward to this year. Many have confidently expected that all members of the body of Christ will be changed to heavenly glory during this year. This may be accomplished, it may not be. In his own due time God will accomplish his purposes concerning his people. Christians should not be so deeply concerned with what may transpire this year."

[Fast forward to] Watchtower April 1 1972: "So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative… Of course it's easy to say that this group acts as a prophet of God, it's another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record, what does it show?"

Brother "D" : Ok. So you are saying that the society or the Watchtower society is a false prophet?

James: Well, I'm not saying it. The Bible says that someone, who says that something will come to pass and it doesn't, especially someone who purports to speak for God- is a false prophet. So what James Caputo says really means nothing because the record is right there, and you all saw it in print.

Brother "D" : Well there are a lot of prophecies that did come true as well.

James: Can I here some of those?

Brother "D" : That's not what we're debating tonight. Answer the question. Is it your view that the Watchtower Society is a false prophet?

James: What is your view? Are they a true prophet?

Brother "D" : No

James: You say they're not a false prophet? They never said that things would come to pass and they didn't?

Brother "D" : I answered your question.

James: Well I will answer differently from you.

Brother "D" : Yes, and what is your answer?

James: My answer is that based on God's word, based on the fact that the scriptures teach that his standards are more righteous than any organization or any claims that men could make...uninspired men...that we have to be true to God's word. God's word tells me that "if a prophet speaks something in the name of Jehovah and it doesn't come to pass that is a prophet who has spoken presumptuously."

Brother "D" : Ok so the question was do you feel the Watchtower Society is a false prophet?

James: I feel the Watchtower Society will go down in history as the false prophet of our century.

23

Question for any elder/recent ex-elder

by OrangeBlossom in

jw
friends

the elders keep dropping by every couple of saturday's after bookstudy to check on us and try to encourage us back to meetings.

it has worked out that my husband has been gone when they visit so they keep coming back hoping to catch him sometime.

anyway, i told my hubby that we should at least go to the meetings once a week to keep them off our trail, which i went this past thursday night and wouldn't you know it the one elder approached me and mentioned that they still want to sit down with us and go over an article on meeting attendance.

teejay

OrangeBlossom,

have you tried letting them know that it has gotten
back to you that you and your husband were called
"nobodys" and "losers"? i wonder how they would
handle that.

41

Perversion of Baptismal Vows

by AlanF in

jw
friends

an appendix in the book contains some 120 questions along with hundreds of scriptural "proof texts" that the proselyte is then expected to study.

12 jesus commanded his followers to baptize new disciples in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit.

the following quotation shows what the proselyte is expected to study just prior to baptism:.

teejay

Six,

Fred look! A body of water. What prevents you from straping
100 lbs of society literature to your body and diving in?

it's still early, but that's my laugh of the day. the mental image
was/is delightful.

thanks!

76

I attended the meeting tonight.....

by silentlambs in

i went to the meeting tonight to check out things in the local congregation.

this spiritual paradise is showing a few cracks.

when i arrived about ten minutes before the meeting started, i felt like a ghost.

teejay

DannyBear said, "When SL (for a very good cause) promotes his website information (excellent info) by mass distribution of 'one liner' snipits in newspapers all over the country, intimating CHILD MOLESTORS AT YOUR DOOR, painting with a broad stroke...(a false premise by the way), that there is a strong possiblity that when a Jehovah's Witness knocks on your door he/she may well be such a criminal...it is going to far. It is not fair by any standards."

It's something worth considering. I don't know how I feel about it. I am still seriously considering having my local paper print up a couple of SL's 1-800 ads. But I wonder about something: my mother is a regular pioneer and so knocks on tons of doors in a month's time. What if SL's (and others') efforts cause people to now suspect my mother (and thousands of other blameless JWs) as a potential child molester? If so, that is wrong. It is an injustice that innocent people shouldn't have to bear. It like the ugly flip side of the issue, where innocent people are being abused against their ability to defend themselves.

I believe that something must be done, and the level of respect that I have for what Bill has done really can't be put into words. I was taught that sometimes you have to take a stand for principle no matter what the cost, and it is very gratifying to see that in this MTV, me first, get-all-I-can-get generation, those principles I learned when I was a little boy are still alive and well in people like him.

Still I wonder if this is the way to go. Good points, DannyBear.

peace,

22

Would like to make new friends all over again

by CathyM38 in

jw
friends

hi, i'm cathy.

am new to the site; some of you know me by now.

i have been dfd since 1997 and without many friends since then and felt quite lost as im sure many of you know the feeling.

teejay

hello Cathy and welcome.

so, what's on your mind?

peace,
todd

76

I attended the meeting tonight.....

by silentlambs in

i went to the meeting tonight to check out things in the local congregation.

this spiritual paradise is showing a few cracks.

when i arrived about ten minutes before the meeting started, i felt like a ghost.

teejay

Silentlambs,

You started this thread just after 1:00 am. This ~~morning~~, before leaving for
work (6:30 a.m.), there were 12 replies. When I logged on this afternoon
(around 4:30 p.m.) there were 59 replies. WOW. I didn't read them all
since they all said basically the same thing, but DannyBear's stuck
out. He asked :

What motive could possibly move you to even want to attend another meeting?

and

Although your revelations of hidden child abuse are commendable,
will you further your cause by 'burning tire rubber' in the parking lot at
your local KM?

DannyBear's post stuck out because I wondered those two very things after
reading your initial post. Like you, Bill, I was raised a JW. Unlike you, I
spent six months as a disfellowshipped JW. Although I was df'd for a reason
and under circumstances far less noble than those accompanying your
current situation, I knew how I would be treated. It came as no surprise. I
was hurt, and, if I were to be blatantly honest, I'd have to admit that some
of the injuries I endured will probably never heal, but none of what I
experienced stood out as unusual.

For example, once while df'd I was headed into the Hall for a Sunday
meeting. A reg. pioneer I'd worked with many times in service (usually in
my car since he was nearly destitute) went in just ahead of me. He saw
me. Instead of holding the door for me as you would for a common stranger,
he let it close in front of me. A small wound, but one of many I could tell.
There was no Internet board where I could post my experience on at that
time. I guess I'm doing it now.

My point Number One is:
You knew and should have fully expected how you would be viewed and
treated by your local JW community. Your mistreatment, as ugly, as
unchristian, as ungodly, as unscriptural and inhumane… AS WRONG as it
is, should not shock anyone, least of all you. If your past experience is
anything like mine, you have probably mistreated others at the Kingdom
Hall as you were last night. It is only part of the game that decent JWs are
forced to play almost against their will. We all know that.

Which leads to point Number Two:
I've never been to your hall -- never even set foot in your lovely state of
Kentucky -- but I'd be willing to bet all the money I have in the bank (well,
it's not that much) that most, if not every single one of the JWs that attend
are decent people, including even the elders. They have families and
children they love and would be willing to go to jail for if the need arose.
They barbecue on the weekend, shop at Wal-Mart. They are not monsters. I
wonder what they were told that allows them to treat a decent man the way
they do.

digderidoo leads me to point Number Three when s/he wondered,
"how you manage to sit through a meeting without standing up and shouting
out, knowing what those certain individuals have done???" Standing up and
causing a scene probably would not have the result I wanted, but I doubt
that I could have just sat there while that farce went on in front of me. I
wonder how you were able.

My last point I direct toward the lurking JWs, wherever and whoever you
are:
Take Silentlambs current situation in life as a warning. You think you are
loved? You think you have a spiritual paradise? You think the governing
body, the local elders, the "friends" at the Hall care about you?

Think again. Think long and hard.

If you EVER see something so wrong, so hideous in Watchtower procedure
or teaching that the conscience Jehovah gave you moves you to speak, do
this: keep your freakin' mouth shut, or expect the same treatment Bill
(and many others before him) has gotten. You may be the lowliest, meekest,
mildest elderly sister in Podunk, Mississippi or you may be a governing
body member flying all over the world first class -- it doesn't matter. If you
want to continue to enjoy the sham of a United Brotherhood, shut the hell
up. Period.

Have a nice day.

22

My latest letter to the org and their reply

by uncle_onion in

jw
friends

so we can see that the early jehovah witnesses believed that jesus parousia began in 1874. the truth book states this above and it is in all the old books.

this statement is coming from the organization that offered the scholarship and keeps written records of such.

teejay

uncle_onion,

All those who are still JWs here should read the letters and
think very carefully about things.

A very serious challenge. What percentage of those who read
it do you think will take it up?