Posts by teejay

Just a couple of quick questions, the first directed at exJWs - could you ever see any reason for you to return to the organisation? What would have to happen for you to return? Under what circumstances would you ever go back?

Usually I try not to read other's responses before making my own, but this time I slipped up and read what jayhawk wrote...

I would never go back unless Jehovah starts talking directly to me. I am tired of the middle man.

God! How perfect. Even if they reformed the movement,

even if they apologized for the ban on higher education and the 1975 fiasco;

even if they totally rescinded the disfellowshipping policy;

even if they exposed all of the pedophiles that up till now they have been so interested in protecting;

even with all of this, I'd need to hear the unmistakable voice of god,
and even then, he better have a damn good reason.

In the words of JT...

... just my two.

peace,
todd ~ who's freakin' tired of the middle man...

42

ExJW's Make Better Lovers?

by COMF in

jw
friends

i don't mean in general, i mean for exjw's... is there a noticable advantage to pairing with someone with the same background?

i'd like to read your thoughts and experiences on this subject.. i've been romantically involved few times, since "the light got brighter" for me about the organization, with people who didn't know anything about jw's before meeting me.

one of them viewed my exjw activity as a bit obsessive but okay as long as she got to obsess on her favorite obesssions, too.

teejay

COMF,

As Wasasister said to me recently, it would be like trying to understand and identify with the feelings of a holocaust survivor.

Good analogy but not one I totally agree with. I think it's quite possible to understand another's life experiences, but first you must have "want to." While I didn't live through the horrors of the holocaust, I've seen plenty of documentaries on the times and, being human with family members I'd rather not say goodbye to forever, I think I can relate very well to their experience. I think the possibility of you meeting a never-been-a-dub woman who satisfies you in every other way is not an impossibility.

So, everybody... ugh, the awful delimma: do I look for an exJW lady in a distant location and try to make a long-distance relationship work? Or, do I look for a woman with all that self-esteem/honesty/love-of-life stuff, who nevertheless will never understand the JW aspect of my life?

I believe that long-distance relationships are unrealistic, for one, and terribly inconvenient in terms of time and money. I've traveled down that cul-de-sac and after all was said and done it would have been better never to have bothered. But why does it have to be an "either or" or even "both" proposition? There's a lot to be said for living your life, minding your own business and seeing what happens.

Then too, the problem may be YOU. Don't take me wrong, but maybe the ex-JW milieu that has been so important to you for the past few years may be in need of a rest. Easy for me to say, I know, but maybe putting it on the backburner (for a while at least) may enable you to be more satisfied with those who have no JW background.

Maybe it'll work itself out. Maybe I worry too much.

A good friend (a fellow Dallasite, btw, and an ex-dub) and I were talking just this past Wednesday night and he made the statement that sometimes people let life come to them rather than going at life, or something like that. His point: the former don't live have as satisfying a life. I agreed.

Worry too much? I don't think so. If something about your life is bothering you, I think you have reason to be concerned and want to do something about it. I think your concerns are very legitimate.

I used to visit Dallas three or four times a year... two of my closest friends in all the world (formerly married to each other) live there as well as a fleshly brother and sister. It's a very dynamic city with lots of interesting people. I have no doubt whatsoever that there are women in search of a thoughtful man like you who have no interest in them other than sharing a little of yourself and making some good memories. As you know, the problem comes in having your life intersect with theirs.

The one thing you don't want to do is limit your field of prospects, like JWs who will only marry other JWs and constantly lament the fact that "there's no one to marry" while surrounded by eligible men. You don't want to fall into the erroneous (imo) view that you could only be happy with an ex-JW. There's plenty of them there... I know some... but there's a whole lot more who have never been. It's something to think about.

I may be there next weekend (the 21st). I've been told of a free jazz concert in downtown Ft. Worth and I haven't been in the metro since Christmas so I'm due for a visit. If I make it and you're not doing anything, maybe we can hook up... if not at the concert, then someplace else.

peace,
todd

ps. Check your email... I'm forwarding the flyer my lady friend sent me about the concert...

52

god is dead

by teejay in

jw
friends

my inactive sister who is very much a jw at heart recently discovered (i told her) that i was a budding agnostic.

she was quite intrigued and wondered why.

coming to an agnostic viewpoint has been a long journey.

teejay

Danny,

Earlier I'd said: "the only thing he can be credited with is giving humans a brain and then letting them exercise free will in whatever direction (not always good) they saw fit, a course not unlike people fumbling around in a dark room trying to find their way out. Eventually they will." I'd like to amend that statement from "they will" to "SOME OF THEM will."

As you pointed out, there have always been elements in the world who have threatened civilization's equilibrium and today's world is no exception. I forget who it was years ago, either President Carter or Reagan, who ominously admitted that for the first time in man's history he (we) indeed had the capability (if not the seeming willingness) to bring about his own extinction. After struggling, as you said for millions of years, to reach this stage of heightened development only to risk it all because of the lust for power on the part of a handful... what a tragedy that would be.

Again, religionists have little to say but that god is merely looking on in mute amazement at "his" creative works, dutifully keeping his profound observations to himself... at least for the past two millenia.

First offended last to appease?

I know I've been living under a rock, but I don't think I've heard that before. Would you elaborate?

My sister: "i still hope for that bright clean shiny "new world."

You: Your sister's simple declaration, is probably reflective of almost everyone alive today. Even those who would only enjoy it for a temporary time period, would probably love to see it. Hell, I settle for turning the clock back 30 yrs. and having a stab at it, all over again. Think I would do any better?

I admit that sometimes I allow myself the simple recollection of a time when I shared my sister's simple viewpoint, and truth be told, I miss it. I get a little choked up, thinking how wonderful it would be to live during a time like that of god's making, when all of our worries, every single one of them, were faded memories. A simple declaration indeed, but how wonderful to be able to live with that genuine hope. It would make life a bit more bearable, especially during the hard times.

Somewhere along the way, though, I made the mistake of rousing myself from slumbering, woke up and decided to face the real world. Now why did I have to go and do something stupid like that? Sometimes I miss those days of blissful ignorance, I really do.

I guess that is why I can barely tolerate anyone that claims to have a special pipeline to God. I say buyer beware. Like you I will wait for a very unambiguous, clear and consise, HELLO THIS IS GOD SPEAKING...before I ever turn over my life and will to another revealer.

Same here. If I could only hear it once... a voice, a whisper, even a dream... the ones like Shelby has several times everyday. For me, Toto has pulled back the curtain and revealed nothing but a man I'm afraid. Try as I might, I see no god.

peace, my friend,
tj

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think you are failing to take into consideration the more important issues, TJ. We do well, if we want to understand why it is taking so long for God to straighten things out, to consider the enormous problem that was created when members of BOTH the angelic realm and the earthly realm of God's intelligent creation called into question their Creator's right to govern the universe. As is generally the case, the bigger the problem the greater the amount of time that is required to overcome that problem.

No, Friday, I think I've duly taken into consideration the "more important issues." I understand that the problem was a big one and needed a big solution. Here's the thing... a thought that dawned on me about ten years ago:

Even before the arrival of the purported Messiah, for thousands of years in among human affairs, a question, like a mustard stain on a dress shirt that refused to go away, rumbled like so much background music on a movie soundtrack: Could man save himself? The question of man's ability to produce a way out of his biggest problem (imperfection and it's byproduct, everlasting death) had been conclusively answered -- mankind was a lost life-form with a need of a redeemer outside of the human sphere. If he was ever going to have a hope and be saved, "god" was going to have to do it.

So Jehovah (supposedly) sent to earth his son, who proved faithful to death. Jesus paid the price, perfectly answering the challenge Satan made in the Garden, correct? What piece of the puzzle has been missing since then, these past 2,000 years? In other words, what has god been waiting on? What further evidence needs to be compiled to demonstrate man's helplessness and hopelessness in view of a) the 4,000 years of previous evidence and, b) Jesus already answering the challenge?

Your viewpoint, one I had for most of my life, no longer makes any sense.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

philo

Thanks for your input about Equiano. As I may have mentioned, the way I came to know of him is by way of a sidebar in a pre-1865 American history book, but you are correct -- he didn't throw himself into the water but only witnessed it. An excerpt from The Interesting Narrative of the Life of Olaudah Equiano or Gustavus Vassa, the African:

"At last, when the ship we were in had got in all her cargo, they
made ready with many fearful noises, and we were all put under
deck... The stench of the hold... became absolutely pestilential. The
closeness of the place, and the heat of the climate, added to the
number in the ship, which was so crowded that each had scarcely
room to turn himself, almost suffocated us. This produced copious
perspirations, so that the air soon became unfit for respiration, from a
variety of loathsome smells, and brought on a sickness amongst the
slaves, of which many died, thus falling victims to the improvident
avarice, as I may call it, of their purchasers. This wretched situation
was again aggravated by the galling of the chains, now become
insupportable; and the filth of the necessary tubs, into which children
often fell, and were almost suffocated. The shrieks of the women, and
the groans of the dying, rendered the whole scene of horror almost
inconceivable. Happily perhaps for myself I was soon reduced so low
here that it was thought necessary to keep me almost always on deck;
and from my extreme youth on, I was not put in fetters...

One day, when we had a smooth sea, and moderate wind, two of my
wearied countrymen, who were chained together preferring death to
such a life of misery, somehow made it through the nettings, and
jumped into the sea; immediately another quite dejected fellow, who
on account of his illness, was suffered to be out of irons, also followed
their example; and I believe many more would very soon have done
themselves, if they had not been prevented by the ship?s crew, who
were instantly alarmed... However the two wretches were drowned,
but they got the other, and afterwards, flogged him unmercifully, for
thus attempting to prefer death to slavery. In this manner, we
continued to undergo more hardships than I can now relate; hardships
which are inseparable from this accursed trade. Many a time we were
near suffocation, from the want of fresh air, which we were often
without for whole days together. This, and the stench of the necessary
tubs, carried off many..."

As I mentioned, I only brought Olaudah's words to my sister's attention as representative of god's total lack of intervention and utter inattention (throughout history up till this very moment in time) to human suffering as opposed to the fairly widespread belief of his loving, merciful and omnipotent care.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jan

Thanks for clarifying who it was that coined the term "god is dead." My recollection of it during the hippy movement is the only contact I personally had to it. I had no intention of stealing Nietzche's thunder.

Your note tells me at least two things... 1) the story about the madman was interesting in that either he was mad or quite sane (Nietzsche's inside joke, I guess) and that I've come to more or less adopt this same view by reasoned observation of tangible evidence in my own world a hundred years later, and 2) I may need to do a little reading.

Hmmm... "murdering god" -- an interesting proposition. I guess a certain portion of the population, more numerous in each succeeding generation, ends up doing that. Will there come a time when the belief in god isn't a foregone conclusion to begin with? I think we're not far from that time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fred

I think most of YOU are dead spiritually.

Thanks, Fred.

peace all,
todd

______________________________________________
A new idea is the result of the dethroning of a reigning God.___? Christopher Hyatt

52

god is dead

by teejay in

jw
friends

my inactive sister who is very much a jw at heart recently discovered (i told her) that i was a budding agnostic.

she was quite intrigued and wondered why.

coming to an agnostic viewpoint has been a long journey.

teejay

Hello, Ken,

When you look at creation everything that lives, dies. This includes the sun, planets, stars and complete solar systems. Unless there is a God somplace who intervenes, this whole human race will die out, in time ... When I try to visualize God I realize that it is impossible for my mind to think in terms of no beginning, or spirit entity in another dimension, with no limits of power and inteligence.

Those are the types of things that crossed my mind when my friend and I talked last Christmas. A being with no beginning was always a whole lot more troubling for me than one that had no end. The 'no end' part I could mentally grasp -- it's something we all contemplate and hope for personally and why we have such a hard time with death, expecting and wanting life to continue. But no beginning? When I was a kid, I could never quite get my mind around that concept. Still, as you said, everything I've known has come to its end, whether loved ones or buildings of steel and concrete that I thought would last forever. Everything else dies... why not god?

Could it be that we are unable to understand these things, sort of like a dog understanding a computer? If this is the case and God doesn't reveal himself in a way that we can understand, then we are left to our own imagination.

Ah, good point, but remember... the religionists tell us that humans were made in god's image. We were the crowning work of his creative achievement. Your analogy, putting us on a dog's level when compared to god, doesn't fit for me. I was always taught that we are higher than that.

Yet most of us he has left in the dark as to his identity and purpose and has charged a select few -? supposedly -- to pass on his revelations. Rhetorical question for god: Why not take our over-imagination out of the picture and just speak to all of us in some way? It's a puzzle I pointed out to Shelby (SJ) on the How do the anointed know they are? thread. God ain't NEVER talked to me, and her explanations for why don't add up.

I've just about given up on trying to understand the meaning of life, I will just live out what's left the best way I can to enjoy it without hurting anyone else. Too bad we can't ask God WHY and get an answer.

I agree with your every word in this. I'd love to know the answers but since they aren't likely to come (they haven't come to anyone else, either, imo) I've decided to live the best way I can, being the best person and father that I can be. It's a worthy goal, one that I feel I can reach. Hey, I'm not complainin'... life could be a lot worse, and for some, it is.

peace,
todd ~ counting his blessings

52

god is dead

by teejay in

jw
friends

my inactive sister who is very much a jw at heart recently discovered (i told her) that i was a budding agnostic.

she was quite intrigued and wondered why.

coming to an agnostic viewpoint has been a long journey.

teejay

Jayhawk,

Elaborate. Please. I'm at the end of my rope, so I won't see it until tomorrow morning, but I'd like to see your thoughts on this topic.

peace,
tj

52

god is dead

by teejay in

jw
friends

my inactive sister who is very much a jw at heart recently discovered (i told her) that i was a budding agnostic.

she was quite intrigued and wondered why.

coming to an agnostic viewpoint has been a long journey.

teejay

Danny

Assuming only one thing, God did in fact CREATE. Upon this one assumption, you can allow for, and accept all the unanswered questions for what they are...simply unanswered. Maybe the Creator never intended anything other than the way things have developed... He has not taken any action, any time, no matter how much man has claimed, hoped, or written differently. He was the originator, but not the 'puppet master'.

That is an interesting hypothesis--one worth considering. It meshes with another of mine -- that death may not be the end of it. If that is so, then the injuries and suffering we experience in this stage of existence could easily be wiped out in what follows this life. A comforting thought... just no evidence. Then too, if god has simply been an inactive viewer of human's affairs, our understanding of what "god is love" means would have to be amended.

... he may now after a trickel of some 5,000yrs of mans historical timetable, be very pleased to observe, some real progress being made by his experiment (creation of man)

reminds me of a Star Trek episode in which a life form who called itself Nagilum kept the Enterprise trapped in space with the purpose of viewing the human responses to events of his making -- specifically the ways humans respond to various faces of death -- to see what they would do. Picard lets Nagilum know that his laboratory experiment was not appreciated, considering the damage that had been done, including the loss of life onboard the vessel. The religious overtones of the episode were very clear. (Roddenberry was an avowed atheist.)

... and decide to finally reveal himself, and let us know what he has been up to. Could happen, what a treat to witness that event.

Nice thought, but I'm not holding my breath.

Although there are many bad things that have occurred or are now occurring, overall man has taken literally HUGE leaps ahead, in the last 100yrs. He may be very proud of his effort, and actually say so. Maybe?

It would be hard to disagree with your statement pointing to the tremendous technological advances in our time, especially with the advent of gas- and electric-powered machines. With the increasingly potent and ubiquitous nature of computers, the next twenty years will likely see the greatest leaps of all.

But "his effort"? Uh... I don't think so. If he is real, the only thing he can be credited with is giving humans a brain and then letting them exercise free will in whatever direction (not always good) they saw fit, a course not unlike people fumbling around in a dark room trying to find their way out. Eventually they will.

I have no problem equating the wildness of the animal kingdoms both present and prehistoric. This balance of nature, or should I say 'cause and effect' has served to keep everything going right along. The food chain, the plants exchanging carbon dioxide for oxygen, the survival of the fittest, storms, floods, earthquakes, reflect what we see for as far as we can see. All of this seems to couple together and to work just fine. Intellegent design?..... imo, no other conclussion adds up.

Of course you make good points, many that I cannot and do not ignore. The natural balance found in nature, as violent as it occasionally appears, serves the biosphere much more adequately than what happens when humans stick their little fingers in. But here, imo, evolution is a satisfactory explanation.

It's when I study and learn about subjects like human physiology that I begin to have "problems." It's the kind of stuff that keeps me from going whole hog over to the agnostic camp. It's hard for me to fully embrace the idea that something so complex as the brain (with all of its processes and functions) could evolve without any exterior impetus or originating design. That's why I told my sister that I don't consider myself a 'hard core' agnostic, but these days I am much more agnostic than Christian when thinking about god.

As for my sister, she said,

"i still take much "on faith." i still hope for that bright clean shiny "new world." i still trust in what i've read all these years in isaiah 55:11 about His ways, thoughts being higher than ours. if not for that? i think i'd just lose my damn mind."

I got no problem with that. No problem at all.

peace my Friend,
todd

42

ExJW's Make Better Lovers?

by COMF in

jw
friends

i don't mean in general, i mean for exjw's... is there a noticable advantage to pairing with someone with the same background?

i'd like to read your thoughts and experiences on this subject.. i've been romantically involved few times, since "the light got brighter" for me about the organization, with people who didn't know anything about jw's before meeting me.

one of them viewed my exjw activity as a bit obsessive but okay as long as she got to obsess on her favorite obesssions, too.

teejay

COMF,

It's a question I've wondered about. The times I have gotten involved with women who weren't ex-JWs were enjoyable -- they were nice people -- but something was missing. There were areas of concern to me that I felt fairly certain they wouldn't understand. I always thought that if I was to have a long term relationship with them it seemed to me that their lack of knowledge about the religion would be a detriment.

An ex-JW buddy of mine, after a series of flings, finally happened to meet a former Witness. Her hot body notwithstanding, the level of intimacy they have would be difficult were it not for the fact that she was raised in the truth and knew all about where he was coming from when others might not have had a clue (or even held him in derision). I could be wrong, but I think that to be truly at one with another, she'd almost have to know quite a bit about the religion.

52

god is dead

by teejay in

jw
friends

my inactive sister who is very much a jw at heart recently discovered (i told her) that i was a budding agnostic.

she was quite intrigued and wondered why.

coming to an agnostic viewpoint has been a long journey.

teejay

considering the violence in nature, the contradiction with the bible that the dinasours present, it seems to me that it is far more reasonable to believe there is no god. The dinasours predated humans and were 'meat eaters.' Meaning Gen 1:30 is mistaken in saying all creatures were to eat vegetation.

Pat,

That's one of the many things that I could have mentioned when I spoke with my sister. The fossil record speaks loud and clear as to the diet of many of those dinosaurs. Those massive incisors were clearly not meant for chewing grains and munching leaves. The bible is oddly silent about them, but I've come to view the bible with a fair amount of skepticism anyway, so its glaring omissions pose no problems for me.

I did once push such thoughts to the side, though, figuring that "one day we'll have all the answers." Doing so required that I ignore all of the evidence so clearly in front of me. That's something I don't do anymore. Like you said: "Then there were many, many other reasons once the blinders were off and other reasonings could be explored." Not "accepted," perhaps, but at least explored, and that in itself, for me anyway, has been a major step towards increased awareness and understanding.

Thanks for your note.

tj