god is dead

by teejay 52 Replies latest jw friends

  • teejay
    teejay

    my inactive sister who is very much a jw at heart recently discovered (i told her) that i was a budding agnostic. she was quite intrigued and wondered why. here's what i said...

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    Coming to an agnostic viewpoint has been a long journey. It started with my questioning the JW religion. An outgrowth of that was to view with outright suspicion things in the bible that have always troubled me. I stopped just accepting (having faith?) that everything was the way it was actually presented or the way I learned it. I became an independent thinker, I guess you could say.

    There was no pivotal moment when I came to adopt my current view... more a dawning realization. Understand, I have yet to see or read or hear it exactly expressed what label most accurately defines what I am. I wouldn't say that I'm a "hard-core" agnostic, where my view could be said to be indelibly fixed. It's just that I have begun to lean on what I am able to observe, whether by reading and study, watching certain documentaries, a variety of things.

    For example, did I write you about the day I made my pilgrimage to the Murrah Building (the bldg. that was blown up in OKC)?

    In history class in our textbook there was a sidebar that told the true life experience of a slave (Olaudah Equiano) that threw himself off the slave ship, preferring to drown rather than be separated from his family and home.

    I was in a book store and came across this paperback, "A Boy Called It", and sat there and read a good part of it, a true story of a boy horribly abused for years by his mother, made to do all sorts of ugly things.

    I could go into long detail on each of these occurrences, but suffice it to say that these prompted periods of deep reflection as they touched on still other events, whether my own or those I read about or knew about.

    In the past, these and many other things I could mention prompted me to say what others STILL say in explanation: "We don't know what god has in mind" or "god will make it right" or something equally exculpatory. Instead of approaching the tragedies (floods, earthquakes, those of human invention) from the standpoint that there IS a god, making it a foregone conclusion, I began to go with the assumption that there wasn't one.

    Wouldn't THAT explain "god's" silence in all of this human suffering, especially in light of the fact that god is supposedly so loving and so concerned for humans? Why such a lengthy record of inattention and seeming indifference? There being no god seemed to satisfy the conundrum. Around the xmas holiday last year, I exchanged some of these ideas with someone who said that, "perhaps god is dead." Even though I'd heard the phrase many times, in that particular setting it hit me with an odd force. It struck me as quite plausible in light of my growing religious identity, more than just a quip from the hippy era.

    I remember the final scene from "The Bodyguard." There's a benediction at the beginning of a conference, a prayer for god's direction and protection. The bodyguard is standing just out of sight, alert, head up and eyes open, scanning the crowd--ready to move in an instant if any foolishness breaks out. If something does go down, left to god, you'd be reading about the calamity in tomorrow's newspaper like we always do. Left to the bodyguard, you wouldn't be hearing about it at all because he was there to squelch the nonsense, whatever it might be. The bodyguard was on the job. Where was god?

    That scene, played out in about ten seconds or less, was a major pillar leading to my current philosophy--that of giving much more weight and consideration to the human equation when considering both the good and the bad that humanity has accomplished.

    When the bomb went off, killing even little babies;

    when Olaudah Equiano whose miserable existence as a slave, forever separated by an ocean from his family, represents the miserable existence of millions of lives of all ethnicities, races and cultures throughout history;

    when the boy called "It" repeatedly cried to heaven for help from god;

    while humans are working so hard in areas of science, medicine, government, all of the humanities,

    how could it be that he so aware, so loving and concerned about human affairs and yet so silent and seemingly oblivious to all that human suffering and equally uninvolved in human achievement?

    If I have to base my belief in god on something other than faith (I must) but look instead at the historical record along with current events, the tangible record does not speak very forcefully for a living, loving, omnipotent being. imo.

  • closer2fine
    closer2fine

    Very eloquent.

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Teejay,

    That was a very good post. It's as the WT used to point out, consider the evidence. What evidence IS there of a god? As you eloquently stated, none.

    Actually, everyone is born an atheist (a person without a belief in a god). It's only when taught about it, then a person is a theist. Some do not accept the 'teaching,' preferring to reach their own conclusions instead.

    I am in the same general category as you, preferring not to label myself. But reached it from a different perspective.

    In considering the violence in nature, the contradiction with the bible that the dinasours present, it seems to me that it is far more reasonable to believe there is no god. The dinasours predated humans and were 'meat eaters.' Meaning Gen 1:30 is mistaken in saying all creatures were to eat vegetation. Also, human's sin had nothing to do with introducing violence in nature.

    Evolution is a much better explanation for what is seen in nature. The violence has ALWAYS been there.

    Then there were many, many other reasons once the blinders were off and other reasonings could be explored.

    Thanks for your story and letting me share mine.

    Pat

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Tj,

    Enjoyed reading about your progressive revelations.

    I have had many of the same thoughts. Presently my view is that God exsists, that his agenda is not dictated by man's. Otherwise all the age old questions, why he allows, death, sickness, blah blah..would be legit.

    If you wipe the slate clean, of all the religious..mystic explanation of who and what God is..right back to the Hebrew fantasy of the 'Garden of Eden', one can then look at the Almighty Creator in a whole new light.

    Assuming only one thing, God did in fact CREATE. Upon this one assumption, you can allow for, and accept all the unanswered questions for what they are...simply unanswered. Maybe the Creator never intended anything other than the way things have developed. Talk about real 'free will', this type of creator, is the only kind I can truly attribute the granting of 'free will'. He has not taken any action, any time, no matter how much man has claimed, hoped, or written differently. He was the originator, but not the 'puppet master'.

    Could he change his agenda? Anytime, he is the begining and the end all. Or then again, he may now after a trickel of some 5,000yrs of mans historical timetable, be very pleased to observe, some real progress being made by his experiment (creation of man), and decide to finally reveal himself, and let us know what he has been up to. Could happen, what a treat to witness that event. Although there are many bad things that have occured or are now occuring, overall man has taken litteraly HUGE leaps ahead, in the last 100yrs. He may be very proud of his effort, and actually say so. Maybe?

    Then again, I have to leave the door ajar, for a more down to earth view, that he just might not exsist at all. God I hope not.He Ha

    Danny

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Ps

    After rereading your post and Patio's, I wanted to add this thought;

    My no agenda idea, seem imo to fit with the certain amount of choas and violence found in the universe.

    I have no problem equating the wildness of the animal kingdoms both present and prehistoric. This balance of nature, or should I say 'cause and effect' has served to keep everything going right along. The food chain, the plants exchanging carbon dioxide for oxygen, the survival of the fittest,storms, floods, earthquakes, reflect what we see for as far as we can see. All of this seems to couple together and to work just fine. Intellegent design?..... imo, no other conclussion adds up.

    DB

  • teejay
    teejay

    considering the violence in nature, the contradiction with the bible that the dinasours present, it seems to me that it is far more reasonable to believe there is no god. The dinasours predated humans and were 'meat eaters.' Meaning Gen 1:30 is mistaken in saying all creatures were to eat vegetation.

    Pat,

    That's one of the many things that I could have mentioned when I spoke with my sister. The fossil record speaks loud and clear as to the diet of many of those dinosaurs. Those massive incisors were clearly not meant for chewing grains and munching leaves. The bible is oddly silent about them, but I've come to view the bible with a fair amount of skepticism anyway, so its glaring omissions pose no problems for me.

    I did once push such thoughts to the side, though, figuring that "one day we'll have all the answers." Doing so required that I ignore all of the evidence so clearly in front of me. That's something I don't do anymore. Like you said: "Then there were many, many other reasons once the blinders were off and other reasonings could be explored." Not "accepted," perhaps, but at least explored, and that in itself, for me anyway, has been a major step towards increased awareness and understanding.

    Thanks for your note.

    tj

  • TR
    TR

    teejay,

    Wouldn't THAT explain "god's" silence in all of this human suffering, especially in light of the fact that god is supposedly so loving and so concerned for humans? Why such a lengthy record of inattention and seeming indifference? There being no god seemed to satisfy the conundrum. Around the xmas holiday last year, I exchanged some of these ideas with someone who said that, "perhaps god is dead." Even though I'd heard the phrase many times, in that particular setting it hit me with an odd force. It struck me as quite plausible in light of my growing religious identity, more than just a quip from the hippy era.

    I tend to agree. All I can say.

    TR

    "I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every
    form of tyranny over the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson*

  • jayhawk1
    jayhawk1

    I have an opinion,
    Man has always looked for comfort. Because of this need for comfort, when we die, we hope there is more. We want our existance to continue, so we want a god to take us to heaven, paradise or whatever. It is only because of this basic need that religion exists at all. I could expand on my theory if anyone is interested.

  • Undecided
    Undecided

    Hi TJ,

    The thought that God is dead has also come up in my mind, but I just don't have faith that he is dead. It takes faith to believe anything as far as God and creation goes. When you look at creation everything that lives, dies. This includes the sun, planets, stars and complete solar systems. Unless there is a God somplace who intervenes, this whole human race will die out, in time.

    When I try to visualize God I realize that it is impossible for my mind to think in terms of no beginning, or spirit entity in another dimension, with no limits of power and inteligence. Could it be that we are unable to understand these things, sort of like a dog understanding a computer? If this is the case and God doesn't reveal himself in a way that we can understand, then we are left to our own imagination. I've just about given up on trying to understand the meaning of life, I will just live out what's left the best way I can to enjoy it without hurting anyone else. Too bad we can't ask God WHY and get an answer.

    Just my thoughts(today)

    Ken P.

  • teejay
    teejay

    Danny

    Assuming only one thing, God did in fact CREATE. Upon this one assumption, you can allow for, and accept all the unanswered questions for what they are...simply unanswered. Maybe the Creator never intended anything other than the way things have developed... He has not taken any action, any time, no matter how much man has claimed, hoped, or written differently. He was the originator, but not the 'puppet master'.

    That is an interesting hypothesis--one worth considering. It meshes with another of mine -- that death may not be the end of it. If that is so, then the injuries and suffering we experience in this stage of existence could easily be wiped out in what follows this life. A comforting thought... just no evidence. Then too, if god has simply been an inactive viewer of human's affairs, our understanding of what "god is love" means would have to be amended.

    ... he may now after a trickel of some 5,000yrs of mans historical timetable, be very pleased to observe, some real progress being made by his experiment (creation of man)

    reminds me of a Star Trek episode in which a life form who called itself Nagilum kept the Enterprise trapped in space with the purpose of viewing the human responses to events of his making -- specifically the ways humans respond to various faces of death -- to see what they would do. Picard lets Nagilum know that his laboratory experiment was not appreciated, considering the damage that had been done, including the loss of life onboard the vessel. The religious overtones of the episode were very clear. (Roddenberry was an avowed atheist.)

    ... and decide to finally reveal himself, and let us know what he has been up to. Could happen, what a treat to witness that event.

    Nice thought, but I'm not holding my breath.

    Although there are many bad things that have occurred or are now occurring, overall man has taken literally HUGE leaps ahead, in the last 100yrs. He may be very proud of his effort, and actually say so. Maybe?

    It would be hard to disagree with your statement pointing to the tremendous technological advances in our time, especially with the advent of gas- and electric-powered machines. With the increasingly potent and ubiquitous nature of computers, the next twenty years will likely see the greatest leaps of all.

    But "his effort"? Uh... I don't think so. If he is real, the only thing he can be credited with is giving humans a brain and then letting them exercise free will in whatever direction (not always good) they saw fit, a course not unlike people fumbling around in a dark room trying to find their way out. Eventually they will.

    I have no problem equating the wildness of the animal kingdoms both present and prehistoric. This balance of nature, or should I say 'cause and effect' has served to keep everything going right along. The food chain, the plants exchanging carbon dioxide for oxygen, the survival of the fittest, storms, floods, earthquakes, reflect what we see for as far as we can see. All of this seems to couple together and to work just fine. Intellegent design?..... imo, no other conclussion adds up.

    Of course you make good points, many that I cannot and do not ignore. The natural balance found in nature, as violent as it occasionally appears, serves the biosphere much more adequately than what happens when humans stick their little fingers in. But here, imo, evolution is a satisfactory explanation.

    It's when I study and learn about subjects like human physiology that I begin to have "problems." It's the kind of stuff that keeps me from going whole hog over to the agnostic camp. It's hard for me to fully embrace the idea that something so complex as the brain (with all of its processes and functions) could evolve without any exterior impetus or originating design. That's why I told my sister that I don't consider myself a 'hard core' agnostic, but these days I am much more agnostic than Christian when thinking about god.

    As for my sister, she said,

    "i still take much "on faith." i still hope for that bright clean shiny "new world." i still trust in what i've read all these years in isaiah 55:11 about His ways, thoughts being higher than ours. if not for that? i think i'd just lose my damn mind."

    I got no problem with that. No problem at all.

    peace my Friend,
    todd

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