Posts by tergiversator

25

Observation by an outsider

by MikeNightHaShev in

jw
friends

i notice that because the jw's point out flaws with the churches doctrines and beliefs that instead of fixing or repenting or solving the issues it's easier for church people to form a backlash whether it's honest or falacious in order to displace blame and smokescreen their own inadequacies.. you can not heal yourself by pointing out anothers wounds, you also can not solve your problems by displacing them instead of admiting and addressing them.. if a jw or anyone else points out the problem of abuse in the church then by pointing out an abuse in the jw elders does not solve the issues of the church abuses neither is it repentance as repentance should be.. if you can't discuss the bible and resons why you fall short and trasngress then by bringing up personal issues or attacking each other like jackals does not change those transgressions it just adds more.. as an outsider i must say all of you are like animals on their prey simply because you didn't like being exposed for your false testiments and false practices.

this means your emotional and psychological and spiritual level is far from being grown up.. will you dare persecute me for pointing out such observations?

a spiritually grown person will reflect on what i say, admit to it and try to change, but a child of darkness will feel their ego hurt and group rpide kicks in causing a person not grown to become defensive bitter and mean/perhaps even spiteful.

tergiversator

Hi Mike,

I'm a bit confused by your post, even after reading it through several times. If I understand you correctly, it seems as if you are arguing against pointing out abuses in the witness organization, or at least making them the prime focus. I would say most people here agree with the second part - we don't always dwell on the abuses prevalent in the witness religion. Most of us are now leading much happier lives that have nothing to do with the witnesses, and there are scores of posts that you may not have seen that deal with how we have grown personally after "admiting and addressing" our problems, instead of "displacing them", as you put it.

But since there are some very bad things going on inside the organization that outsiders don't know about and insiders can't talk about, I am puzzled at why you seem to think it does no good whatsoever to talk about them. Perhaps, as you say, "you can not heal yourself by pointing out anothers wounds" - but you can darned well try to help other people not suffer the same injuries of shunning, covered-over abuse, mental manipulation, needless death through contradictory policies on blood and neutrality, etc.

I'm also a bit wary when you say things like:

A spiritually grown person will reflect on what I say, admit to it and try to change, but a child of darkness will feel their ego hurt...

That is exactly the sort of "all good people will obviously agree with what I say and if you don't then you must be evil or crazy or both" thinking that turned me off of the witnesses. You wanted a mature discussion without us sinking to personal attacks; please do your part by not insulting any who might just so happen to disagree with some of what you say.

Anyhow, welcome to the board, and do stick around. You might be surprised at the levels of non-bitterness we reach sometimes.

-T.

20

What Kind of Witness Were You ?

by Big Jim in

jw
friends

for me that is a hard question to answer.

it seems like when your in the borg it is always pounded in your head that you need to do more so they made you think you were never doing enough.. the last five years that i was in it i guess you could say i was pretty gung-ho, i regulare pionered for almost three years as well as served as a ms, i used my home for book study as well as saturday field service.. but you know what all that does not amount to a hill of beans, you know why?

because the whole time i was a doubter, i never liked it from the time i was a kid.

tergiversator

I was a true believer since before my mom got baptized (I was 5). She used to say how one of the things that impelled her to finally "take her stand" was me, age 4ish, at a meeting, drawing a picture of a sheep pen and a goat pen and turning to her saying, "We're in the goat pen, aren't we mom? We'd better hop over into the sheep pen." (This was before there was New Lite(tm) on that subject.)

But hey, it's what all the adults kept calling the truth, and it made a good deal of sense for a good many years (at least until I was 14 or 15). I just sorta trusted that everyone had done their research and had their facts straight. I was a witness 'cause it was the truth, and was such a good auxiliary-pioneerin' worldly-kid-avoidin' non-partyin' sort of of kid because I thought I should be, 'cause, y'know, it was the truth.

If I'd been male, I would've been on the fast track toward a lot of fun and ever exciting privileges. As it was, I was the sort of kid that reassured parents that their kids weren't all going to flake out (just, probabilistically speaking, 95% of them). The sort of kid who did very well in school, never gave her parents any trouble (Nope sir, none at all, not me. Just ask them. [8>]), liked going out in service and attending meetings, and, above all, knew it was the truth. The sort of person, if fact, about whom it was said, "Well, if Elisabeth's a witness, there must be something for it then."

In other words, a well-intentioned but ultimately smug, judgemental (and just what did I think of my "flaky" age mates?), supercilious know-it-all who was in for quite a rude awakening when, in fact, it turned out to not be the truth.

-T., of the it's-not-arrogance-if-I'm-right class

12

Two Different Views/Hypocrisy

by troubled in

jw
friends

what's hard is seeing things 2 different ways.. in other words, sometimes when i realistically look at things in the organization (without pushing away the uncomfortable thoughts or feeling guilty), i come to the conclusion that "yes, something is definitely wrong in this organization.".

but then when i go to the meetings, service, etc., i think differently (i.e., "this is the truth, and i'm just spiritually weak and need to study more).

since i seem to be influenced both directions, how can i be sure which viewpoint is right?

tergiversator

Hey troubled,

It sounds like you could've written my journal 2-3 years ago. I had a horrible case of double vision, as I termed it, and there just wasn't any way of getting rid of it. Was I falling out of the truth because I was allowing myself to dislike the meetings and writing style of the publications, or was I disliking the meetings and magazines because I recognized subconsciously the witnesses did not have the truth? And could I trust myself to judge which of the two cases was correct, knowing full well that I had been taught that human judgement was falliable and not to be trusted? I couldn't see any way to resolve it, and it was driving me crazy (somewhat literally).

I finally decided to step back and re-assess what I really, truly believed in. It wasn't a very long list, and went something like:
1) People should be nice to each other.
2) If I only believe something because someone else tells me I should (no matter who that person or organization is), then I don't really believe it.
3) Likewise, if I choose to completely doubt my own judgement and abdicate decision-making on what I think and do to someone else (no matter who that may be), I have still made a choice. (Thanks, Rush.)
4) People should be nice to each other.

At the time, I felt as if I had dug into the foundations of my rock-solid convictions and fallen out into a hole in the sky. Realizing that there were still a few things that I truly felt, deep down, helped a little.

Wish I had some better advice to share with you. It does get better... it just takes a while. Hang in there.

-T.

12

Bibles view of women and children.

by Norm in

jw
friends

christians want that everything must be wholesome and up building.

of course nothing could be considered more so than the bible, the word of god.

in our society we are very concerned with human rights and in particular the rights of women and children.

tergiversator

gsark,

Actually, their actions make perfect sense if you don't think they were divinely directed. The Isrealites killed off all of the adults because that's what warring tribes did in those days - and of course you didn't want any sons left alive because they might grow up to try to take vengeance against the slaughter of their parents. Girls, on the other hand, girls were useful. You could always use an extra concubine or subjugated worker.

And as for killing off the women to avoid venereal disease... I would tend to think these diseases are not so rampant as you would think, else how would the other tribes have survived long enough for the Israelites to conquer them? I think it is more likely a result of a cultural fixation on virginity, plus the practical realization that young girls are easier to assimilate than grown women.

The only place God necessarily comes in here is in justification for why the Israelites had to slaughter everyone in the first place.

Just my thoughts.

-T.

7

Fighting the Internet

by terraly in

jw
friends

apparently the taliban agrees with the watchtower on the evils of free information:.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20010713/wr/tech_afghan_internet_dc_1.html.

in some ways afghanistan is a good glimpse at what "theocratic government" under the watchtower would be like.

tergiversator

Do you mean "theocracy" in the sense of God directly and unequivocably ruling over men? Or in the sense of men claiming the authority of God to rule absolutely over other men? Because once people start claiming to speak for God and ordering other people to do what they say he says, that's not theocracy in the strict sense of the word - that's tyranny of the worst kind.

I, for one, am glad the witnesses do not have their own country to mess up the way the Taliban has Afghanistan. I shudder to think of how dissenters, women, and children would be treated if they were not constrained by "the laws of the land".

-T.

26

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation

by VM44 in

jw
friends

the kingdom interlinear translation (kit) has been published by the.

watchtower since 1969. it still is available in it's second editon.. but how many really use this book?

or read it?

tergiversator

Somehow, as a kid, I got the impression that people who got KIT's and studied them thoroughly were dangerous doubters already on their way out of the organization. Maybe this is because I have vague recollections of my dad reading through it heavily in his last few months (he was only in less than a year) before he was forcibly DA'd. Anyhow, he took the family copy when my parents got divorced, and it was another decade before I got one for myself.

I'm not real sure why I wanted one; I think it was mainly because I was collecting foreign language material and thought I should have something in ancient Greek too. I suppose there was also the lure of finding out about whatever it was in there that drove people out of the truth, 'cause I was doubting. I didn't find anything myself, though; I didn't know where to look and barely glanced at it after I got it.

But lo and behold here I am. Maybe just owning an interlinear translation is the ticket out.

-T.

37

Something cause this??? but what??

by Okidok in

jw
friends

i like to wonder, and be able to think independent of any subject or topic thats provoke me.

even if these subjects are "weird" or not.. it look like sometimes ,there is topics that seems to already been explained seriously as hoaxes.

so dont even bother to try to explain it otherwise,or if u want to maintain serious.. well here is a challenge for you.. try to explain these images.. since 1980 these crop circles has appeared ,and increased every year.. what do u think of this circle that appeared today.

tergiversator

Okidok,

Sorry. Geometric patterns in grain fields just doesn't do it for me. If by some chance they were made by aliens, they would have to be the most boring creatures in existence, if that's the best they can come up with to prove they're here. (Unless they're just bored alien kids out cruising.) Not that I think that a very likely possibility. It's a little puzzling to me why there's a need to postulate fantastic causes when some humans have already admitted to making the whole thing up.

And I was a bit puzzled by your linkage of thinking ability and faith. Seems to me that it would be far easier to demonstrate that aliens exist (if they do) than to do the same for God (if he exists).

-T.

37

Something cause this??? but what??

by Okidok in

jw
friends

i like to wonder, and be able to think independent of any subject or topic thats provoke me.

even if these subjects are "weird" or not.. it look like sometimes ,there is topics that seems to already been explained seriously as hoaxes.

so dont even bother to try to explain it otherwise,or if u want to maintain serious.. well here is a challenge for you.. try to explain these images.. since 1980 these crop circles has appeared ,and increased every year.. what do u think of this circle that appeared today.

tergiversator

They're not difficult. The original crop circles were made by some British hoaxers who kept it up for many years before publicly admitting it, at least according to what I read in Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World, which discussed how they pulled the stunt off. Subsequent crop circles have also been traced to copycat hoaxers, sooner or later. There should be references to that online (though I don't have time to look for them.)

-T.

82

Prevalence of JW Suicides - Real or Imagined?

by AMNESIAN in

jw
friends

in one or two recent threads i've seen reference to the possibility of a rising number of jw suicides being another of the organization's very dark realities about which it is vigilant in keeping concealed from its pub populace.

is there anyone reasonably informed regarding this?

is there reason to suppose the incidence ratio among jws is any higher than among any peoples/religion?

tergiversator

GodRules,

All people who leave the witnesses are proud. That's why they are willing to consider the possibility that what they sincerely believed to be the truth might not be true, if other evidence overwhelmingly contradicts it. That's why they put up with the hate and scorn of their former brothers and publicly admit to the world that they were wrong.

All witnesses are humble. That's why they tell everyone else that they're going to die at Armageddon (and have their eyeballs plucked out) if they don't accept every single one of their doctrines, down to the last nuance of an antitypical fulfillment of an obscure minor prophet in a talk at a forgotten convention 70 years ago. That's why they will never ever ever listen to anyone else's point of view, except with the view of how to bring them around to their own.

The witnesses are God's organization because they're God's organization. They say so, and who would doubt God's organization? Anyone who disagrees is going against God and should be summarily shot. But, since the laws of the land don't permit that, we'll just pretend you don't exist. La, la, la, I can't hear you. Our way is so obviously good and just that anyone who disagrees must be crazy.

Did I get that right? Tell me if I misread your post.

I think the wonder of the whole matter is that there aren't more witness suicides. It speaks volumes about the resiliency of the human spirit even under the most irreconcilable doublethink.

-T., who thinks "GodRules" is a rather prideful name.

82

Prevalence of JW Suicides - Real or Imagined?

by AMNESIAN in

jw
friends

in one or two recent threads i've seen reference to the possibility of a rising number of jw suicides being another of the organization's very dark realities about which it is vigilant in keeping concealed from its pub populace.

is there anyone reasonably informed regarding this?

is there reason to suppose the incidence ratio among jws is any higher than among any peoples/religion?

tergiversator

Godrules,

How 'bout, shun your best friend, your child, your parent, your spouse if such person decides to leave the organization?

Let me know if you want more examples.

-T.