PetrW

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Posts by PetrW

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  11

  Greek and antecedents (draft)

  by Blotty in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  natural antecedents (essay) + meanings to certain words.

  i posted about 5 months ago a study done by daniel wallace called “greek grammar and the holy spirit” (see: source), which i have cited numerous times since – which focuses heavily on greek antecedents.

  ending), and she (fem.

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  PetrW

  ...I'm on vacation... but I looked at all your links. I'll look at it again when I get home😎
  
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  33

  Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

  by EasyPrompt in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  per request from petrw🙂, some revelation stuff.... .

  the four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once jesus is enthroned in heaven.. .

  the winds of destruction are on the religious institutions.. .

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  PetrW

  If I were to evaluate your opinion, I think that the concept of the Great Babylon being represented by churches or even religions is, shall we say, a move in the right direction. It is certainly a better interpretation than saying that only the Catholic Church or the institution of the papacy within the Catholic Church represents Babylon the Great. But despite these positives, the Great Babel is still just a theological "stick" in the hand with which to beat "competitors." It is still a term used in inter-religious warfare.

  Biblically, I think the biggest weakness of this concept is that Rev 18:24b claims that "the blood of...ALL the slain of the earth was found in him". I guess blaming all the murders on religion or churches is impossible? Or, how do you explain this???
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  24

  What would you change?

  by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i’m agnostic so maybe the universe started by chance or by design.. if it was by design (hypothetically) and the bible is the designers word, and jws seem to be the closest to it, then what would be the largest things you would change?.

  here are a few ideas.

  -do away with the governing body thinking they are gods only channel.

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  PetrW

  To paraphrase Paul's words in Athens: God does not dwell in churches made by human hands.

  Yes, this may seem like a radical criticism of churches, but I simply see attempts to fix churches as a continuation of social utopia. Let's go and make our church work... let's go and build a tower so that if there's another flood, we can save ourselves...
  

  The hypothetical idea is possible, but the realisation is practically impossible according to the laws of sociology and psychology...
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  33

  Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

  by EasyPrompt in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  per request from petrw🙂, some revelation stuff.... .

  the four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once jesus is enthroned in heaven.. .

  the winds of destruction are on the religious institutions.. .

  1. 
  2. 
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  PetrW

  Interesting explanation of 666. I think it is possible to include your interpretation in the group of interpretations of 666 that are generally called "the symbolic meaning of the number 6". There are several variations on the theme of the number 6, with one of the earliest attested in Irenaeus of Lyons, who considered the 600 years of Noah, connecting it to the 60x6 cubits of the statue in Daniel. The basis of symbolic interpretations of 666 is always the number 6, and the more or less negative significance of the number 6 is emphasized...

  And of course, Irenaeus also popularized gematria. Little is known anymore, and therefore none of the reputable commentators cite other passages from Irenaeus where he writes about the gematria speculations of the Gnostics on the name of Jesus and his numerical 888 as being nonsense...

  I have about 20 or 30 commentaries on Revelation (in book or electronic form - see archive.org or the Zlib app 😎😎😎) and other literature on and about Revelation...

  What I mean to say: from this position it is easy to come up with criticisms of your solution - others have done it for me. The greatest weakness of symbolic interpretations of the number 666 is that, first, it does not quite meet the requirement for the imperative form of the verb "to count" and, most importantly, in Rev 15:2 when it speaks of those who conquered the beast and its image, that the number 666 mentioned in this text must also be non-literal in nature, it must be something material. It is difficult to "beat" an arithmetic equation... (anything goes, of course, but you can probably guess that Rev 15:2 is not exactly on this topic...). JW as far as I know oscillate around the symbolic meaning of 666 and not knowing anything 😁

  I have my explanation, I am writing it - but it has to be published in a journal first. All I can say is that the solution to 666 can be found in the Bible (no, it is not again the symbolic meaning of 666 talents of gold or number of sons...) and there is a wide base of literary and non-literary extra-biblical monuments from antiquity to early Byzantium to support this explanation (no, it is not gematria, in any language - see above by Irenaeus of Lyons).

  But let's try another topic ✌️😎

  The identity of Babylon the Great? What do you make of it???????????😎
• 
  11

  Greek and antecedents (draft)

  by Blotty in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  natural antecedents (essay) + meanings to certain words.

  i posted about 5 months ago a study done by daniel wallace called “greek grammar and the holy spirit” (see: source), which i have cited numerous times since – which focuses heavily on greek antecedents.

  ending), and she (fem.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  PetrW

  ...although on the issue of "parakletos" the non-Trinitarians have a very weak hand: if John 14:26 refers to the Holy Spirit as "parakletos", then 1 John 2:1 is the same - parakletos - applied to Christ. As a "theological DIYer" I would even make some doctrine of the Holy Trinity out of this...✌️😁😎😁

  More seriously: given the Greek πνευμα, I was most interested in the modern equivalent ... i.e., what does "invisible, moving force" or πνευμα mean in the human body? I could only find https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adenosine_triphosphate

  This is going to sound a bit brutal, but since the death of Jesus, is well documented in the NT, it is possible, I think, to see how "energy collapse" at the cellular level in the body, means that πνευμα is not in the body ... maybe someone has a better solution?
• 
  33

  Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

  by EasyPrompt in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  per request from petrw🙂, some revelation stuff.... .

  the four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once jesus is enthroned in heaven.. .

  the winds of destruction are on the religious institutions.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  PetrW

  Re the UN and Daniel: as I wrote, in my opinion, combining the interpretation of Daniel and Revelation is, "high piloting"... so - frankly - I'm not going to dispute what you wrote. I'll just ask: what if Jesus doesn't come until the end of the 23rd century, say in 2289? What will happen to the UN in 2289? 🤔🤔🤔

  ***

  doggy cool ✌️😁

  ***

  long texts don't matter, rather the quantity témat✌️😎😁
• 
  33

  Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

  by EasyPrompt in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  per request from petrw🙂, some revelation stuff.... .

  the four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once jesus is enthroned in heaven.. .

  the winds of destruction are on the religious institutions.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  PetrW

  Add to that the term 3 1/2 time, or "time, times and half the time". I've expounded on this here somewhere (it was related to my long-standing objections to 1914) because it cannot be determined from the way the term καιρος is used that it must be 3 1/2 time. The term "time, times, and half a time" does correspond in length to the 1260 days and 42 months of Revelation, which would correspond to a length of about 3 1/2 years, BUT, that does not mean that "time" here corresponds to "year" or that "times" are two "times". It may be a different period of time, such as a week. Then it would just be a matter of filling the number of weeks to a total length of about 3 1/2 years, or in other words, "a week and 179 weeks and half a week". But it may be a different time span. The plural καιροι need not yield two καιρος. This is best seen in Luke 21:24 which is the central text in JW chronological speculation for 1914: they automatically assume that καιροι (plural) is 2 times here (so that they can then increase it to 7 times according to the book of Daniel). But it may be 2 or 7 or 70 or 150 or 2300 "times". The plural here does not express any value - or, as one might assume with eyes or ears, for example.
  
• 
  33

  Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

  by EasyPrompt in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  per request from petrw🙂, some revelation stuff.... .

  the four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once jesus is enthroned in heaven.. .

  the winds of destruction are on the religious institutions.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  PetrW

  Ugh, enough information. So let me ask: where is the UN described in Revelation? And how do we biblically prove it? (In my opinion, it lacks enough evidence to make such a comparison, and I would almost say it borders on condemning others, which we as Christians should avoid... by what judgment do you judge...)
  
• 
  33

  Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

  by EasyPrompt in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  per request from petrw🙂, some revelation stuff.... .

  the four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once jesus is enthroned in heaven.. .

  the winds of destruction are on the religious institutions.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  PetrW

  EP: The plagues of Revelation are not literal. The attack on religious institutions will be like figurative earthquakes for many people.

  PW: Literal (physical) versus figurative (symbolic) in Revelation...

  Revelation was given in signs, in pictures, which according to nothing but parables. So I will personally examine whether a literal fulfillment is possible. If I find that a literal interpretation, for example, makes God an even greater murderer than Satan, then I consider the figurative, symbolic meaning.

  So I understand the plagues that are described in Revelation symbolically - I don't think Revelation addresses their "technical" execution, for the simple reason that the symbolic scenes could have been realized in the 5th or 13th or 19th century. But they may not occur until the 23rd century. Thus, in my view, revelation reveals processes and relationships between entities. It does not address how the last king will destroy Babylon the Great - what instruments he will use to do so. It is a description of who, when, whom and why he will attack with what result. Names, addresses, places are not the subject of Revelation. On the one hand, it is clear that the plagues will somehow physically take place in our real world, but on the other hand, specific names or places are not important - just as it is towards the past: the Exodus tells us that there was a king in Egypt, that he was a Pharaoh. The name, the origin, his relations to the outside world were not important to the writers of Exodus. Just a pharaoh who drowned.

  In addition to this explanation regarding the literal/symbolic, I have another argument, and that is the answer to the question of what constitutes Babylon the Great*. I also reject here the "materialization" into any particular church or all churches or the UN or the EU or OPEC or who knows what else...

  Again, what I wrote above applies here, in my opinion: Revelation could have been fulfilled in the 5th or 19th century. Therefore, looking for a specific entity behind the symbolic Great Babylon is a pointless effort. The history of the interpretation of Revelation supports me....

  *what I believe is the Great Babylon, sometime later... I need to walk the dog!✌️😁
• 
  33

  Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

  by EasyPrompt in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  per request from petrw🙂, some revelation stuff.... .

  the four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once jesus is enthroned in heaven.. .

  the winds of destruction are on the religious institutions.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  PetrW

  Thank you! Where to start? 🤔

  EP: The four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once Jesus is enthroned in heaven.

  PW: Leaving aside 1914, the identity of the four horsemen is a matter of some debate. Ever since the earliest (extant) commentaries on Revelation (see Victorinus of Ptus, 250-304), there have been disputes about the identity of the horsemen, whether the first horseman is Christ himself or the Antichrist, and how the other horsemen harm people and the earth. So there are generally two main directions: that the 1st rider on the white horse is Christ, or that the 1st rider is the Antichrist. All interpretations then tend to agree that the subsequent horsemen bring physical hardship in the form of wars, famine and disease, and vicious animals, affecting 1/4 of the planet...

  For completeness, I should add that the JWs again chose not entirely wrong (the 1st horseman is Christ), which is a better choice than the Antichrist, but the weakness of the JW interpretation is often discussed: the Christ, as the Lamb, is the one who opens the seals, which is probably why he doesn't jump from horse to horse. Most importantly: John does not particularly describe the rider himself. Jesus Himself, as the rider, only appears - in an active role - as the victorious King in chapter 19. If he was already riding out now, why would he be riding out in chapter 19? Furthermore, in the 5th seal, the symbolic souls do not perceive the activity of the horsemen as judgment. Therefore, it must be something else.

  But typical of JWs, they don't level with their opponents anywhere. Either they are ignorant of them or they silently ignore them and appropriate their interpretations, which can be traced back through the centuries, and again silently pass them off to their "sheep" as God's revealed, one, true and actual light...

  So I will try to look at it differently!

  The key to revealing the identity of the 4 horsemen is the statement about the plagues that will strike 1/4 of the earth.

  However, two insertions are necessary here:

  1. Christ

  2. theodicea's question

  Re 1: Revelation is given to Jesus and as the angel tells John in 19:10 so it is true that Jesus' sayings, are spirit i.e. an invisible, moving force to interpret the mystery i.e. literally: prophecy. And since Revelation is a book of prophecy, Jesus' sayings are the first source for the exegesis of Revelation. This is known, but less often, it is applied...
  

  Ad 2: Theodicy is a difficult question. I'll keep it to the absolute minimum: God is love, and he has placed his love above his justice and righteousness. Love does not nullify law and justice, but those who fail to use love will be confronted and God's law and justice (and wrath). God does not put out a smoldering wick and break a broken stalk => the goal of Revelation is the salvation of people, not their slaughter by 1/4 or 1/3. Again, everyone knows this, but few consistently apply....

  So as I wrote above, the key to interpreting Revelation is Jesus. So did Jesus ever talk about there being four kinds of earth, and from what would one infer that there is 1/4 of an earth? In my opinion, yes, and it is a parable about four types of land.

  It is his famous parable from Matt 13 ch. where the grain falls on the road, the rock, the thorns and the good soil. Jesus then goes on to give another parable in Matt. 13:24, specifying the situation where the grain does come up, but immediately weeds appear. The field (land) is the world. Here, in my opinion, is the 1/4 we are looking for.

  From this perspective, it is then easy to deduce the identity of the four horsemen when in Matt 13:39 Jesus explains the parable, and says that the reapers are angels and the harvest is the end of the ages.

  So the revelation begins quite unobtrusively, like a thief in the night, the angels, at the call from heaven, set out to reap the firstfruits => those who have already ripened, to destroy the weeds, to do no harm to those who are not yet ripe...they are only interested in God's field, where God's sons and daughters are. That's why they work on 1/4 of the earth. That is why it is said that wheat and barley are of equal value. It has nothing to do with some physical famine. It is a picture that wheat i.e. sons and daughters of God will be three times less than barley i.e. people who are not Christians but still behave as described in the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount. Like oil and wine: these are the ones who are merciful, healing "wounds" like wine, anointing "pains" like oil. Why should God punish them? I remind you: he will not break the broken grass...

  Are hunger, the sword, and animals literal plagues then? In their case, no: they induce spiritual hunger, for the receptive, they divide with the sword of the spirit the right from the wrong, they impose the yoke => the law of Christ on those who want to follow it. Those who are afflicted with wounds, those wounds are to bring them to repentance, because if they don't, they will fall victim to death, they will have to hope for a resurrection from the sheol/hades, and some will fall victim to an even worse wound: the animals, to be discovered later. And getting out of the power of the animals will be even more difficult, at which time the wrath of God will really be revealed...

  All this will happen quite subtly, there may be real wars, pandemics, earthquakes, famines in the world. People will be really preoccupied with the problems of this world. But sometimes, in such a situation, quite unobtrusively, up there, one seal will break and from the throne of God will be heard: go...