Posts by PetrW

65

In Response to Anony Mous regarding the 144,000 and other questions...

by EasyPrompt in

still, you hold onto false teachings of the wtbts which are only there for the enrichment of its chiefs.. as pointed out, the rest of the book of revelation is figurative, yet you hold that the number 144,000 is literal.

the wtbts currently says that this number is limited to those running the wtbts and that anyone claiming to be part of it outside that self-selecting group could be mentally ill.. by what reasoning (not from wtbts origin) do you believe only 144,000 people will be ‘saved’, and how do you know who is part of this self-selected group, given virtually no other religious denomination does even remotely believe in the literalism of revelation.

do they have to be jws?

PetrW

Anony Mous, I think you're thinking along the right lines. We may disagree on the implications, but I agree with you on your initial reasoning regarding the meaning of numbers in Revelation... 😎

If, Jesus says write to 7 congregations, then the number of letters is 7. It is not 8 or 6. In the same way, 7 angels have 7 trumpets and blow 7 times, not 6 times or 8 times.

I consider John*, the author of Revelation, this John is identical to the author of the Gospel. And it is in this Gospel that the writer's "penchant" for different numbers and precise timings is striking. John, for example, lists the 3 festivals of Passover, writes at what exact hour an event took place, counts prices, people, fish...

It's just a hint, it's more of a curiosity, but that interest in numbers, measurements, totals is also found in Revelation. John again is fond of measuring the New Jerusalem, calculating the length of the 1000 years, stating that something was first, and something was second, etc., etc.

So how is it - in my opinion - with the 144,000? Why not 143,999 or 144,001?

I think the number 144,000 is literal because the sum of 12x12,000 is literal. But, there is - in my opinion - a big BUT.

Because in order for any number of 144,000 to come into existence, then in the context of Revelation, the angels will seal those 144,000. This will occur when the Revelation takes place. The question becomes, what about the people who are living in the time before the sealing? JWs-theology addresses this with a sort of excuse that these people are counted in the 144,000 and that there is a sort of "remnant" in the ranks of the JWs. This would assume, of course, that Revelation and sealing is permanent and not from the 6th seal (and lasts until the 6th trumpet). This interpretation, is contrary to their interpretation of 1914... but the contradictions in JWs theology are not important.

How is it then? I think, and the sheer size of the New Jerusalem suggests it, that there will be millions upon millions of these co-rulers and priests with Christ, men and women. Each of those 20 centuries has "produced" plenty of "wheat", sometimes more, sometimes less. Never, as Noah was told, did the sowing and reaping cease. In a symbolic sense, I take it to mean just that in each period, some wheat was born.

In my opinion, then, by the time the last harvest of the last sons and daughters of God begins, then all have the same right and the same chance to be as "last" as the 144,000. And no one can take that right away from them. No theology, no organization. Only Jesus will choose.

I address the question of literal meaning by saying that, yes, it is a literal number, but if there has been no breaking of the 6th seal, then the heavenly government is offered to all who have "an ear to hear". The analogy, then, is with the great multitude at the time of Revelation: these are people who, though they did not know Christ accurately, acted mercifully towards other people. These are the ones who change (literally: 1/3 died after being attacked by 200 myriads of "horses") and show compassion, like the Samaritan. If Revelation were to take place at this time, then the Samaritan represents a merciful Muslim or a merciful Chinese Communist. I deliberately write it this way because I believe in the universality of salvation, which is really based on who is merciful or gentle, and not on the external attributes of "our/foreign"...

*there are various hypotheses as far back as the patristic era on the subject of authorship. The authenticity of God's word doesn't change that in my opinion - see the Letter to the Hebrews, where the author's name is not even directly mentioned.

60

Sign of the Last Days

by Fisherman in

in the sermon on the mount, jesus foretold that earthquakes “in one place after another” would be part of the sign of the last days clímaxing in the great tribulation.. what could jesus possibly have meant?

using a phone app nowadays, there are earthquakes detected in one place after another but is this what jesus meant and did they have so many earthquakes throughout the centuries affter his prophecy or are these modern day detected earthquakes unique to this epoch?

how can we be sure unequivocally that modern day earthquakes are part of the sign fulfilling bible prophecy?.

PetrW

I believe that the events described in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 refer primarily to the time, the beginning of the reign of the Beast, whose reign culminates in the destruction of Babylon the Great, which will be destroyed by the last, eighth king, the Antichrist rising from the Ten Horns (ten kings). The 42 months will be marked by an almost successful attempt to establish the total reign of the Antichrist...

For these and other reasons, I am convinced that these are events deep in the time of Revelation (they still need to preach for 1260 days beforehand, 2 symbolic witnesses, etc.), and which are far from occurring.

Literal wars, famines, or pandemics, may be given as signs of Christ's imminent reign, but false Christs are also signs. But wars or lie-messiahs were always there. And so they will be in the time of Christ's truly approaching Lordship. But since this is almost a permanent condition on earth, as an indication it is an unreliable measure. Similar to Paul writing that men will become evil in the end times. When were they good?

So there must be a more reliable tool to determine the time...

My interpretation is that the 7 churches in Revelation represent the state of Christianity (outside of ancient realities) at the time just before the coming of Christ. It's a very dismal state of affairs. Christians are languishing under the domination of powerful, false apostles. But there are also people who, like Antipas, have the approval of Christ. This gives hope that at least as individuals or as small groups, islands, they will exist locally as the true Christians.

For me, then, Revelation begins with the four angelic horsemen riding out. And they ride out into the field of the Lord. To reap the first harvest. Separating the wheat from the chaff. Remind the Lord's law. Do no harm to the meek. The colors of the horses of these riders are the same symbolic colors as the colors of the leprosy plagues of the Mosaic Law. Anyone on whom a "wound" appears will be forced to go to a priest (i.e., turn to Christ) and only he will decide if it is a wound and if he must isolate and purify himself. Or he will be all white, and Christ will pronounce him clean.

So these horsemen have several tasks, and if one does not respond to them, he will have several more chances to change. But it will be better if the Lord finds no stain on him, or even such a stain that his "house" will have to be entirely destroyed.

The sword, hunger, death, and wild animals mark the results of the horsemen's action: they separate the Spirit by the sword, cause death ("death" as in ending one's relationship with the world), cause hunger (for the true Word of God), and prepare some for martyrdom by the animals. It is the completion of the work, so that such wheat can be the first, fine flour, as a "sacrificial" offering to God, but also grain, for sowing, where one will yield 30, 60 or 100 times...over the years to come, the amount of symbolic wheat will grow geometrically. Therefore, the Lord at the end of the 6 trumpets, concludes the number of 144,000 women and men.

Judgment, then, will begin with the Christians, the true as well as the false.

So when the centuries-old Christian systems, as well as their latest variants, begin to collapse, when the "wounds" on the "fruit" are manifested, then "it", has come. The horsemen, the 4 inconspicuous, solitary, but angels sent from God and the Lamb, will be the first real sign of the beginning of the Day of the Lord (see also the 4 horsemen and Mat 10 chapters and the preaching of Christians). This can occur today, tomorrow, but also 200 years from now.

The plagues that affect Christians in the Lord's field will also affect other people. The sixth seal, says there will be a solar eclipse or an earthquake or every mountain and island will be moved. Some people, from kings to slaves, will want to "hide" with Christians. They will look for something solid "like a rock" because they realize that the end is indeed coming.

Revelation does not describe the "mechanism" of the "shaking". I think this is because the coming of Christ could occur in the 5th or 13th century or it will occur in the 22nd century. And that's why it's all about relationships. Not about whether the "eclipse" was caused by some ecological, financial or pandemic crisis and especially the failure/incompetence in dealing with it. It doesn't matter whether, and how far, this crisis was caused by man or merely misjudged and blamed on something or someone as the cause. To give an example: the Pharaoh, quite rationally and in terms of the political quest for power and the maintenance of power, identified the risks associated with the overpopulation of large numbers of migrants in his country. He was worried about power. That is why he started the repression. He feared that he would not shine like the sun on his subjects...

Now, in my opinion, it is a time when everyone has to walk alone, on a narrow footpath, in the rain, in the fog, in the dark, towards a goal that is somewhere in that direction. In the distance you can hear the highway, the railroad, and occasionally the voices of people, from the wide road below you...✌️😎

28

Could this be the end of JWs? What are the consequences if it is?

by Teddnzo in

multiple very serious allegations against tony and then huge efforts to remove him from all pictures and videos, have to admit it doesn’t look good.. once the pennsylvania investigation becomes public knowledge and front page news it will be very very hard for 8 million pimis.. is it possible that this could be the largest problem the branch has ever faced?

larger than 1975, the overlapping generations or any other ‘test of faith’.

many will feel heartbroken and betrayed.

PetrW

@Ron W.

I'll try to make a layman's(!) guess: of the three congregations I know, over 20 years, I'd estimate that about 1/4 or maybe 1/3 of the people still alive have left the fellowship. To these I could theoretically add their children who have not become JWs. But this hypothetical loss of membership, in the form of children, is equivalent, I think, to the number of JWs who, while remaining in congregations, have had their religious enthusiasm cooled considerably.

They are formal members, on par with people who go to church on Sunday. They haven't physically left because the fellowship of JWs suits them, they have deep relationships there that they would be hard pressed to find elsewhere. This might increase the number of "ex"...but I don't want to speculate...

So I estimate that there are about 2 million ex-JWs living in the world...???🤔🤔🤔

28

Could this be the end of JWs? What are the consequences if it is?

by Teddnzo in

multiple very serious allegations against tony and then huge efforts to remove him from all pictures and videos, have to admit it doesn’t look good.. once the pennsylvania investigation becomes public knowledge and front page news it will be very very hard for 8 million pimis.. is it possible that this could be the largest problem the branch has ever faced?

larger than 1975, the overlapping generations or any other ‘test of faith’.

many will feel heartbroken and betrayed.

PetrW

Is there any way to estimate the number of ex versus in? If there are approx. 8 million in, then how many ex are alive? Is there such an estimate?

32

Sagely advice of a CO

by Vidqun in

“a circuit overseer started out by saying that on this last round of the circuit, the one thing he noticed the most...is that everyone is physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually drained...and that cuts across all barriers and demographics within the truth.

he then said that the one common thread that ran among nearly everyone was this: we feel guilty for feeling bad.

he said because we are told to endure with joy, our minds can cause us to feel enormous guilt over feeling this way...and then, my dear brothers and sisters...he proceeded to blow our collective minds.. he asked us to turn to daniel 8:27….

PetrW

@Phizzy

Also, I think CO unwittingly(!) described endogenous depression in JWs. I know from past experience that many of those I knew suffered from depression and my wife, as a doctor, has several JWs who have a psychiatric diagnosis...

And just like you, after a while, I stopped feeling the beginner's enthusiasm. Spiritual food turned into spiritual hunger

Or else still: it was as if I were still in, say, the third grade of elementary school. Where you go over the same things over and over again. I'm not saying that JWs celebrate success anywhere - especially where they substitute for the school system - but for the average educated European or American, JW theology must be clear in, say, half a year of study. And if no further stimulus comes, it becomes boring. Complemented by being permanently kept in fear.

JWs may have theologically gotten rid of the fear of hell, but they have replaced it with the fear of Armageddon - whether they will survive Armageddon.

9

Faded then apostate?

by Teddnzo in

if someone has faded so they are not known as a jw for a few years there is no need to be disfellowshiped or announced that they are no longer a jw.. so they wouldn’t need to be shunned the same way as if they did a hard exit like writing a letter or something.. so if evidence arose that such a faded person was sinning there still would be no need to announce that they were no longer a jw the same as if they were known as a jw.

family members and members of the congregation would not shun them?.

what would happen if such a faded person became apostate?

PetrW

@Teddnz

"we always sat in the group still in, but I guess next time we will sit in the group who are out. I don’t know any of them but it will be interesting to see if those still in will talk to us"

I think patience with relatives is the only way. I made the mistake, two or three years ago, of deliberately provoking. The consequence was that the elders of that congregation probably warned the relatives that: not like that...

Today I regret it and I probably wouldn't have done it, I would have tried to be more quiet and not provoke conflict... certainly not discuss JW theology with them and somehow contradict it. My bad.

9

Faded then apostate?

by Teddnzo in

if someone has faded so they are not known as a jw for a few years there is no need to be disfellowshiped or announced that they are no longer a jw.. so they wouldn’t need to be shunned the same way as if they did a hard exit like writing a letter or something.. so if evidence arose that such a faded person was sinning there still would be no need to announce that they were no longer a jw the same as if they were known as a jw.

family members and members of the congregation would not shun them?.

what would happen if such a faded person became apostate?

PetrW

From my own experience, especially relatives who know about your real relationship with JW-org will keep in touch with you if there is, for them, some advantage 😁 and at the same time, if you are not from the same ward with them in the past, so contact with you does not compromise them in any way.

But if you make yourself known in some way (I for example in emails read by elders from the congregation), then it will force, even after 20 years, your relatives to cut off any contact with you. Without any trial.

The Roman Catholic Church, as far as I know, has a sort of "excommunio latae sententiae", which is popularly "firing" without question, just on the basis that you did something wrong. For JWs I think, unwritten, it works too.

I was very amused for those 20 years or so by the question of whether I appeared - as a number, of course 😁 - in the JWs yearbooks, as a member?😁 Because, I was never expelled, and nowadays nobody would even make me go somewhere and explain something to somebody...

But even after 20 years, the sect indirectly "cuts you off" from your relatives, even though they, too, are not JWs who belong on the front pages of WT 😁 I try not to dwell on it, but when that relative is your last sibling, sometimes it hurts. On the other hand, in almost every family, the relationships between relatives are damaged in some way and don't even need JW.org to do it - whether parent-child or between siblings...🤔

81

Acts 15:29 - "keep abstaining from blood"

by aqwsed12345 in

for a christian, only the moral commandments of the old testament are binding (as they cannot change), but the various liturgical, social, and other so-called casuistic laws no longer apply to them.

this includes dietary habits, such as the prohibition of pork or fat, as well as the prohibition of blood.. take a look at the following verses: mt 15:11, mk 7:15-19, acts 11:7-9, 1 tim 4:3-5.. the jehovah's witnesses say that, yes, but in the acts of the apostles (15) the consumption of blood, idol meat, and strangled animals is also prohibited, meaning the new testament still forbids it.

for catholics, the council of florence settled this issue, stating that this apostolic regulation was only a temporary measure to facilitate agreement between jews and gentiles in the early church.

PetrW

A quick glance at the NT Greek dictionary (see Bauer) for the verb απεχω, confirms that this verb, has the meaning of: 1. "terminus technicus" of the business world, expressing the receipt of a sum of money (see Matt 6:2: "they have their wages")... 2. expressing a geographical/physical or abstract (see Matt. 15:8) distance from something to something (Lk. 24:13: "a village 60 stadia from Jerusalem") and 3. to keep away or abstain from something (1 Tim. 4:3: "...abstain from the food that God has created...").

The meaning of απεχω in Acts 15:29, as abstaining from eating blood, is well attested, both in the NT and in extrabiblical literature (cf. απεχω in Joseph Flavius).

I will now deliberately avoid examining what abstinence from "blood" means, or what abstinence from blood meant in ancient Judaism. I commend to all the excellent commentary on the NT by Strack-Billerbeck (Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Midrash) on the passage Acts 15:20.

If I look at the context of chapter 15, from the beginning (Acts 15:1) it was about circumcision according to the Mosaic custom, without which - according to some - no one can be saved. In Acts 15:5, the argument of the Pharisees who became believers is repeated, who argued that it was necessary(!) for new Christians to be circumcised. The Pharisees demanded that the Law(!) be kept as well.Peter takes up the word and finds that God makes no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, for He has given His Holy Spirit, both "to them...and to us" (Acts 15:8). Circumcision, like the requirement to keep the Law(!), is evaluated by Peter as a burden (a yoke on the neck) that neither the forefathers of the Jews nor the Jews themselves who became Christians were able to keep (Acts 15:10). It is only by believing in the grace of Jesus that the Jews, as Gentiles, can be saved (Acts 15:11).James speaks last and judges that they are not to make trouble for those who, as Gentiles, have turned to God and formulates four areas from which Gentile Christians are to keep their distance (Acts 15:20). He adds the argument that the Law of Moses is read everywhere and every Sabbath - my understanding is that James was referring those possibly interested in the details of the Law of Moses to a local synangogue where they could learn what all Christ had delivered them from.
Transferred to the JWs, who draw their position from Acts 15:20ff: to fulfill James' request, then the BG would have to repeatedly urge its members to go to a Catholic church from time to time, if they wish, and hear a Latin Mass, and thereby learn that this, is not for them... The covering letter of the Apostles from Jerusalem to Antioch and other cities, declares again - for the third time (Acts 15:28) - that the aim was to avoid additional, unnecessary burdens for Gentile Christians, outside those four necessary areas. The original controversy over circumcision and other requirements for keeping the Law is no longer explicitly mentioned in the letter. That is, the original requirement about circumcision and other rules of the Law, is reduced to four "tolerable" requirements, and anyone could see for themselves in any synagogue among Jews who wanted to continue to keep the whole thing...
I understand the temporariness of the whole ordinance from the meaning of abstaining from a "strangled" animal. This is commonly explained using the OT, where the animal, whether it died by accident or predator, or was ritually killed, had to be bled. Strack-Billerbeck, in my opinion, correctly reason that the prohibition against eating a "strangled" animal must have applied to a dead or torn animal, since the rabbinic requirements for bleeding an animal were beyond the OT, and certainly those requirements, in themselves, were a burden.

The NT describes (Mk 5:13) the case of the 2000 "strangled" pigs who threw themselves into the sea. These drowned pigs, according to the literal interpretation of Acts 15:20ff, would have been inedible. But if you look more closely at the Greek NT, you will find that the verb "to strangle"/"to choke" does not refer only to animals. In Mat 13:7, the term "choked" plant appears. If I were to update - in the JW sense - also the prohibition of eating "strangled" to plants and their fruits, then I would have to examine whether, for example, an apple, grew on a tree that was not girdled by some weed. A must, compote or even cider, made from apples I picked from old apple trees that were covered with creepers, would be as serious a sin as having a blood transfusion...

For me, Christ is the end of the Law (Rom. 10:4) and the Law is as dead as dead can be (Rom. 7:2-4).

81

Acts 15:29 - "keep abstaining from blood"

by aqwsed12345 in

for a christian, only the moral commandments of the old testament are binding (as they cannot change), but the various liturgical, social, and other so-called casuistic laws no longer apply to them.

this includes dietary habits, such as the prohibition of pork or fat, as well as the prohibition of blood.. take a look at the following verses: mt 15:11, mk 7:15-19, acts 11:7-9, 1 tim 4:3-5.. the jehovah's witnesses say that, yes, but in the acts of the apostles (15) the consumption of blood, idol meat, and strangled animals is also prohibited, meaning the new testament still forbids it.

for catholics, the council of florence settled this issue, stating that this apostolic regulation was only a temporary measure to facilitate agreement between jews and gentiles in the early church.

PetrW

@aqwsed12345

Very nice! Mercy glorieth against judgment!

Just a note: in discussions with Adventists regarding Sabbath-keeping, I have found a similar "explanatory formula". Both Adventists and JWs collectively claim that the Sabbath/blood command was given before the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law affirmed the Sabbath/blood command. And both Adventists and JWs find support in the NT for the continued uncompromising necessity to follow the commands given. More dangerous and life-threatening, of course, is the blood issue than the Sabbath issue (but even that is not entirely without problems).

Any discussion on the subject of Christ being the end of the Law, and thus of the Sabbath and blood, is met with stiff resistance from these groups. It is part of their creed, and to deny these articles of faith is to break with that church.

6

How to stirr up the poor into digital online business

by Gorb in

jw
friends

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-november-2023/hulda-reached-her-goal/.

what about this watchtower article?

in my jw time i felt not comfortable about this kind of "devine education".. poor sister works above her self to get a device.. jw.org hypocrisy for going full digital.. g..

PetrW

@enoughisenough

As you write: there is pressure.

But there could also be her own motivation: the sister wanted to see all the Tony Morris videos... and now they've deleted it ✌️😁 No, end of sarcasm.

However, a more likely scenario would be that a person with such energy and desire to change something (like her) will sooner or later "break" the JW-stone to gravel too...

If, as an ex-JW, she stays with Christianity, and endures the taunts of her surroundings and the hatred of JWs, then she will be a true heroine.

In terms of salvation, I think Christ will save her, and one day tell her: everything you thought when you read the Bible was true. What you just accepted, you know it wasn't about me and from me....