What the F**K. I started to cry when I read your topic and the first part of your story (yes, a man can cry). Cant you find another way to relate your story than to play on emotions?
Edited by - thichi on 25 July 2002 12:32:59
Posts by ThiChi
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52Alan F. and wife beaten while on vacation.
by seven006 inour friend alan f. and his wife julie have been on vacation in oregon for a week.
they took a couple days to visit the oregon coast and rented a beach house in a small town south of cannon beach.
i drove down from portland yesterday to spend the day with them and their daughter julie and my son abe.
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Judicial Hearing-Elders Afraid
by silentlambs inhttp://community.webshots.com/photo/44722558/44722772xoorvs
http://community.webshots.com/photo/44722558/44722843mbprwy
http://community.webshots.com/photo/44722558/44723017nebyfw
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ThiChi
Bill: you may not know it yet, but they are doing you a favor. You need to get the h**l out of there. What a weight on you! The assault of your Christian Freedom must stop!
DA yourself and send the reasons to all your friends and family....then you get the last word and action in your matter, not them.
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proof for xander and Jan H.
by RWC inthe original "will religion be banned " thread has moved to page 16 so i thought i would start a new one here.. both xander and jan h. asked for proof that the gospel wruters were martyred.
here is the proof of that plus the proof that other persons identified as disciples were martyred as well:.
stephen - stoned to death.
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ThiChi
To apply the standard of "outside independent secular conformation" to every historical event or writing would essentially disrupt most recorded history as we know it. This type of "burden of proof" would deny historical figures and happenings to such a magnitude that it would render most useful information meaningless.
Edited by - thichi on 23 July 2002 13:56:52
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JW can go door to door without a permit
by Crystal inhow do they figure the jw is a charitable org.?.
they dont donate to any causes that i know of.. i believe they should be considered a buisness!!.
sunrise reviews law on soliciting door to door.
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ThiChi
It has been reaffirmed by the High Court (over and over) that matters of a religious nature and/or non-commercial activities, are protected from Government regulations when engaged in speaking to the public. That includes coming to your door to talk to you. If I want to go my neighbor to talk about an issue that is important to me, should I have to obtain a permit first to do this? American values say no.
Though I disagree with the Dubs message, I do agree in principal with the ruling. I do not feel government should control every aspect of our lives.......
Are the dubs a business in the true sence of the word? No, they are not, as they meet all the governments "tests" for what is a non-profit, religious organization.
Edited by - thichi on 23 July 2002 13:36:12
Edited by - thichi on 23 July 2002 13:36:51
Edited by - thichi on 23 July 2002 13:38:4
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proof for xander and Jan H.
by RWC inthe original "will religion be banned " thread has moved to page 16 so i thought i would start a new one here.. both xander and jan h. asked for proof that the gospel wruters were martyred.
here is the proof of that plus the proof that other persons identified as disciples were martyred as well:.
stephen - stoned to death.
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ThiChi
The Apostles could have very well been involved in this situation:
The "Rise And Fall of the Roman Empire" by Edward Gibbon:
Proof?
See the rescript of Trajan, and the conduct of Pliny. The most authentic Acts of the Martyrs abound in these exhortations.
In particular, see Tertullian (Apolog. c. 2, 3) and Lactantius (Institut. Divin. v. 9).
See Tertullian (Apolog. c. 40). The Acts of the Martyrdom of Polycarp exhibit a lively picture of these tumults, which were usually fomented by the malice of the Jews.
Humanity of Roman magistrates The total disregard of truth and probability in the representation of these primitive martyrdoms was occasioned by a very natural mistake. The ecclesiastical writers of the fourth or fifth centuries ascribed to the magistrates of Rome the same degree of implacable and unrelenting zeal which filled their own breasts against the heretics or the idolaters of their own times. It is not improbable that some of those persons who were raised to the dignities of the empire might have imbibed the prejudices of the populace, and that the cruel disposition of others might occasionally be stimulated by motives of avarice or of personal resentment.(66) But it is certain, and we may appeal to the grateful confessions of the first Christians, that the greatest part of those magistrates who exercised in the provinces the authority of the emperor or of the senate, and to whose hands alone the jurisdiction of life and death was intrusted, behaved like men of polished manners and liberal education, who respected the rules of justice, and who were conversant with the precepts of philosophy. They frequently declined the odious task of persecution, dismissed the charge with contempt, or suggested to the accused Christian some legal evasion by which he might elude the severity of the laws. (67) Whenever they were invested with a discretionary power,(68) they used it much less for the oppression than for the relief and benefit of the afflicted church. They were far from condemning all the Christians who were accused before their tribunal, and very far from punishing with death all those who were convicted of an obstinate adherence to the new superstition. Contenting themselves, for the most part, with the milder chastisements of imprisonment, exile, or slavery in the mines,(69) they left the unhappy victims of their justice some reason to hope that a prosperous event, the accession, the marriage, or the triumph of an emperor, might speedily restore them by a general pardon to their former state. Inconsiderable number of martyrsThe martyrs, devoted to immediate execution by the Roman magistrates, appear to have been selected from the most opposite extremes. They were either bishops and presbyters, the persons the most distinguished among the Christians by their rank and influence, and whose example might strike terror into the whole sect;(70) or else they were the meanest and most abject among them, particularly those of the servile condition, whose lives were esteemed of little value, and whose sufferings were viewed by the ancients with too careless an indifference. (71) The learned Origen, who, from his experience as well as readings, was intimately acquainted with the history of the Christians, declares, in the most express terms, that the number of martyrs was very inconsiderable.(72) His authority would alone be sufficient to annihilate that formidable army of martyrs, whose relics, drawn for the most part from the catacombs of Rome, have replenished so many churches, (73) and whose marvellous achievements have been the subject of so many volumes of holy romance.(74) But the general assertion of Origen may be explained and confirmed by the particular testimony of his friend Dionysius, who, in the immense city of Alexandria, and under the rigorous persecution of Decius, reckons only ten men and seven women who suffered for the profession of the Christian name.(75)
Example of Cyprian bishop of Carthage During the same period of persecution, the zealous, the eloquent, the ambitious Cyprian governed the church, not only of Carthage, but even of Africa. He possessed every quality which could engage the reverence of the faithful, or provoke the suspicions and resentment of the Pagan magistrates. His character as well as his station seemed to mark out that holy prelate as the most distinguished object of envy and of danger. (76) The experience, however, of the life of Cyprian is sufficient to prove that our fancy has exaggerated the perilous situation of a Christian bishop; and that the dangers to which he was exposed were less imminent than those which temporal ambition is always prepared to encounter in the pursuit of honours. Four Roman emperors, with their families, their favourites, and their adherents, perished by the sword in the space of ten years, during which the bishop of Carthage guided by his authority and eloquence the councils of the African church. It was only in the third year of his administration that he had reason, during a few months, to apprehend the severe edicts of Decius, the vigilance of the magistrate, and the clamours of the multitude, His danger and flight. who loudly demanded that Cyprian, the leader of the Christians, should be thrown to the lions. Prudence suggested the necessity of a temporary retreat, and the voice of prudence was obeyed. He withdrew himself into an obscure solitude, from whence he could maintain a constant correspondence with the clergy and people of Carthage; and, concealing himself till the tempest was past, he preserved his life, without relinquishing either his power or his reputation. His extreme caution did not however escape the censure of the more rigid Christians, who lamented, or the reproaches of his personal enemies, who insulted, a conduct which they considered as a pusillanimous and criminal desertion of the most sacred duty. (77) The propriety of reserving himself for the future exigencies of the church, the example of several holy bishops,(78) and the divine admonitions which, as he declares himself, he frequently received in visions and ecstacies, were the reasons alleged in his justification. (79) But his best apology may be found in the cheerful resolution with which about eight years afterwards, he suffered death in the cause of religion. The authentic history of his martyrdom has been recorded with unusual candour and impartiality. A short abstract therefore of its most important circumstances will convey the clearest information of the spirit and of the forms of the Roman persecutions.(80)
A.D. 257. His banishment. When Valerian was consul for the third, and Gallienus for the fourth time, Paternus, proconsul of Africa, summoned Cyprian to appear in his private council chamber. He there acquainted him with the imperial mandate which he had just received,(81) that those who had abandoned the Roman religion should immediately return to the practice of the ceremonies of their ancestors. Cyprian replied without hesitation that he was a Christian and a bishop, devoted to the worship of the true and only Deity, to whom he offered up his daily supplications for the safety and prosperity of the two emperors, his lawful sovereigns. With modest confidence he pleaded the privilege of a citizen in refusing to give any answer to some invidious and indeed illegal questions which the proconsul had proposed. A sentence of banishment was pronounced as the penalty of Cyprian's disobedience; and he was conducted without delay to Curubis, a free and maritime city of Zeugitana, in a pleasant situation, a fertile territory, and at the distance of about forty miles from Carthage.(82) The exiled bishop enjoyed the conveniences of life and the consciousness of virtue. His reputation was diffused over Africa and Italy; an account of his behaviour was published for the edification of the Christian world;(83) and his solitude was frequently interrupted by the letters, the visits, and the congratulations of the faithful. On the arrival of a new proconsul in the province the fortune of Cyprian appeared for some time to wear a still more favourable aspect. He was recalled from banishment, and, though not yet permitted to return to Carthage, his own gardens in the neighbourhood of the capital were assigned for the place of his residence.(84)
His condemnation. At length, exactly one year (85) after Cyprian was first apprehended, Galerius Maximus, proconsul of Africa, received the imperial warrant for the execution of the Christian teachers. The bishop of Carthage was sensible that he should be singled out for one of the first victims, and the frailty of nature tempted him to withdraw himself, by a secret flight, from the danger and the honour of martyrdom; but, soon recovering that fortitude which his character required, he returned to his gardens, and patiently expected the ministers of death. Two officers of rank, who were intrusted with that commission, placed Cyprian between them in a chariot, and, as the proconsul was not then at leisure, they conducted him, not to a prison, but to a private house in Carthage, which belonged to one of them. An elegant supper was provided for the entertainment of the bishop, and his Christian friends were permitted for the last time to enjoy his society, whilst the streets were filled with a multitude of the faithful, anxious and alarmed at the approaching fate of their spiritual father. (86) In the morning he appeared before the tribunal of the proconsul, who, after informing himself of the name and situation of Cyprian, commanded him to offer sacrifice, and pressed him to reflect on the consequences of his disobedience. The refusal of Cyprian was firm and decisive, and the magistrate, when he had taken the opinion of his council, pronounced, with some reluctance, the sentence of death. It was conceived in the following terms: "That Thascius Cyprianus should be immediately beheaded, as the enemy of the gods of Rome, and as the chief and ringleader of a criminal association, which he had seduced into an impious resistance against the laws of the most holy emperors Valerian and Gallienus."(87) The manner of his execution was the mildest and least painful that could be inflicted on a person convicted of any capital offence: nor was the use of torture admitted to obtain from the bishop of Carthage either the recantation of his principles or the discovery of his accomplices.
His martyrdom. As soon as the sentence was proclaimed, a general cry of "We will die with him" arose at once among the listening multitude of Christians who waited before the palace gates. The generous effusions of their zeal and affection were neither serviceable to Cyprian nor dangerous to themselves. He was led away under a guard of tribunes and centurions, without resistance and without insult, to the place of his execution, a spacious and level plain near the city, which was already filled with great numbers of spectators. His faithful presbyters and deacons were permitted to accompany their holy bishop. They assisted him in laying aside his upper garment, spread linen on the ground to catch the precious relics of his blood, and received his orders to bestow five-and-twenty pieces of gold on the executioner. The martyr then covered his face with his hands, and at one blow his head was separated from his body. His corpse remained during some hours exposed to the curiosity of the Gentiles, but in the night it was removed, and transported, in a triumphal procession and with a splendid illumination, to the burial place of the Christians. The funeral of Cyprian was. publicly celebrated without receiving any interruption from the Roman magistrates; and those among the faithful who had performed the last offices to his person and his memory were secure from the danger of inquiry or of punishment. It is remarkable that, of so great a multitude of bishops in the province of Africa, Cyprian was the first who was esteemed worthy to obtain the crown of martyrdom.(88)
Various incitements to martyrdom. It was in the choice of Cyprian either to die a martyr or to live an apostate, but on that choice depended the alternative of honour or infamy. Could we suppose that the bishop of Carthage had employed the profession of the Christian faith only as the instrument of his avarice or ambition, it was still incumbent on him to support the character which he had assumed,(89) and, if he possessed the smallest degree of manly fortitude, rather to expose himself to the most cruel tortures than by a single act to exchange the reputation of a whole life for the abhorrence of his Christian brethren and the contempt of the Gentile world. But if the zeal of Cyprian was supported by the sincere conviction of the truth of those doctrines which he preached, the crown of martyrdom must have appeared to him as an object of desire rather than of terror. It is not easy to extract any distinct ideas from the vague though eloquent declamations of the Fathers, or to ascertain the degree of immortal glory and happiness which they confidently promised to those who were so fortunate as to shed their blood in the cause of religion. (90) They inculcated with becoming diligence that the fire of martyrdom supplied every defect and expiated every sin; that, while the souls of ordinary Christians were obliged to pass through a slow and painful purification, the triumphant sufferers entered into the immediate fruition of eternal bliss, where, in the society of the patriarchs, the apostles, and the prophets, they reigned with Christ, and acted as his assessors in the universal judgment of mankind. The assurance of a lasting reputation upon earth, a motive so congenial to the vanity of human nature, often served to animate the courage of the martyrs. The honours which Rome or Athens bestowed on those citizens who had fallen in the cause of their country were cold and unmeaning demonstrations of respect, when compared with the ardent gratitude and devotion which the primitive church expressed towards the victorious champions of the faith. The annual commemoration of their virtues and sufferings was observed as a sacred ceremony, and at length terminated in religious worship. Among the Christians who had publicly confessed their religious principles, those who (as it very frequently happened) had been dismissed from the tribunal or the prisons of the Pagan magistrates obtained such honours as were justly due to their imperfect martyrdom and their generous resolution. The most pious females courted the permission of imprinting kisses on the fetters which they had worn, and on the wounds which they had received. Their persons were esteemed holy, their decisions were admitted with deference, and they too often abused, by their spiritual pride and licentious manners, the pre-eminence which their zeal and intrepidity had acquired. (91) Distinctions like these, whilst they display the exalted merit, betray the inconsiderable number, of those who suffered and of those who died for the profession of Christianity.
Ardour of the first Christians. The sober discretion of the present age will more readily censure than admire, but can more easily admire than imitate, the fervour of the first Christians, who, according to the lively expression of Sulpicius Severus, desired martyrdom with more eagerness than his own contemporaries solicited a bishopric. (92) The epistles which Ignatius composed as he was carried in chains through the cities of Asia breathe sentiments the most repugnant to the ordinary feelings of human nature. He earnestly beseeches the Romans that, when he should be exposed in the amphitheatre, they would not, by their kind but unseasonable intercession, deprive him of the crown of glory; and he declares his resolution to provoke and irritate the wild beasts which might be employed as the instruments of his death.(93) Some stories are related of the courage of martyrs who actually performed what Ignatius had intended, who exasperated the fury of the lions, pressed the executioner to hasten his office, cheerfully leaped into the fires which were kindled to consume them, and discovered a sensation of joy and pleasure in the midst of the most exquisite tortures. Several examples have been preserved of a zeal impatient of those restraints which the emperors had provided for the security of the church. The Christians sometimes supplied by their voluntary declaration the want of an accuser, rudely disturbed the public service of paganism,(94) and, rushing in crowds round the tribunal of the magistrates, called upon them to pronounce and to inflict the sentence of the law. The behaviour of the Christians was too remarkable to escape the notice of the ancient philosophers, but they seem to have considered it with much less admiration than astonishment. Incapable of conceiving the motives which sometimes transported the fortitude of believers beyond the bounds of prudence or reason, they treated such an eagerness to die as the strange result of obstinate despair, of stupid insensibility, or of superstitious frenzy.(95) "Unhappy men !" exclaimed the proconsul Antoninus to the Christians of Asia, "unhappy men! it you are thus weary of your lives, is it so difficult for you to find ropes and precipices?"(96) He was extremely cautious (as it is observed by a learned and pious historian) of punishing men who had found no accusers but themselves, the imperial laws not having made any provisions for so unexpected a case; condemning therefore a few as a warning to their brethren, he dismissed the multitude with indignation and contempt.(97) Notwithstanding this real or affected disdain, the intrepid constancy of the faithful was productive of more salutary effects on those which nature or grace had disposed for the easy reception of religious truth. On these melancholy occasions there were many among the Gentiles who pitied, who admired, and who were converted. The generous enthusiasm was communicated from the
Edited by - thichi on 22 July 2002 19:16:35
Edited by - thichi on 22 July 2002 19:41:34
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WHY DO JW'S USE MORE OLD TESTAMENT THAN NEW?
by minimus inevery book that is published, every magazine written ,highlights the hebrew scriptures as opposed to the greek.do you think it's because most christians stress christ's words and jw's need to be different?
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ThiChi
Farkel: you hit it right on the head!
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Little things in life that make you smile/happy
by Cappuccino OC inearly this morning i noticed a couple of racoons in my back yard searching for food.
there's a huge park/forest in my back yard.
i quietly opened the door and left some treats for them.
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ThiChi
Kids are nice, but I still like bonding with a good Cuban Cigar!
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Letter of disassociation to my JW family
by Larry ingreetings - would some one please confirm that the aug 2002 km has the article entitled "display christian loyalty when a relative is disfellowshipped" i want to be accurate with my quotes in this letter.
speaking of which, i'm sending the below letter to my jw family - if you have time please let me know your thoughts -thanks - larry :).
to all my practicing jehovah witness family members:.
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ThiChi
You got it covered!! Keep us updated on the response.....
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Life Created from Scratch
by bboyneko inresearchers in new york have created infectious polioviruses from ordinary, inert chemicals they obtained from a scientific mail-order house, marking the first time a functional virus has been made from scratch and raising a host of new scientific and ethical concerns.. "this shows it's now possible to go from data printed on a piece of paper or stored in a computer and, without the organism itself.
reconstruct a life form," said john la montagne, deputy director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases at the national institutes of health.. .
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/a58070-2002jul11.html
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ThiChi
I am not "religious." However, I do believe in a "spirit" that brings order to the universe. There can be room for a God.
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Life Created from Scratch
by bboyneko inresearchers in new york have created infectious polioviruses from ordinary, inert chemicals they obtained from a scientific mail-order house, marking the first time a functional virus has been made from scratch and raising a host of new scientific and ethical concerns.. "this shows it's now possible to go from data printed on a piece of paper or stored in a computer and, without the organism itself.
reconstruct a life form," said john la montagne, deputy director of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases at the national institutes of health.. .
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/a58070-2002jul11.html
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ThiChi
PS: I let the quotes talk for themselves without any commentary on my part......