Posts by ThiChi

87

What is the difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design?

by somebodylovesme in

jw
friends

drawing once again from the infinite wisdom of this board.... i'm having a hard time figuring out the distinction between creationism and intelligent design... is id just creationism with a pronounced christian tie?

thanks in advance.

slm

ThiChi

Here is what to look out for in debate:

Conflate intelligent design with creationism. I'm not sure how much longer this tactic will work because the public and press are now catching on to the difference, but as long as there's mileage to be obtained, go for it. Emphasize science as a great force for enlightenment and contrast it sharply with fanatical religious fundamentalism. Then stress that intelligent design is essentially a religious and political movement. Generously use the "C-word" to confuse intelligent design with creationism, and then be sure to liken creationism to astrology, belief in a flat earth, and holocaust denial.

Argue for the superfluity of design. This action point is also getting increasingly difficult to implement simply on the basis of empirical evidence, but by artificially defining science as an enterprise limited solely to material mechanisms, one conveniently eliminates design from scientific discussion. Thus any gap in our knowledge of how material mechanisms brought about some biological system does not reflect an absence of material mechanisms in nature to produce the system or a requirement for design to account for the system, but only a gap in our knowledge readily filled by carrying on as we have been carrying on.
Play the suboptimality card. For most people the designer is a benevolent, wise God. This allows for the exploitation of cognitive dissonance by pointing to cases of apparent incompetent or wicked design in nature. I believe intelligent design has good answers to this objection, but the problem of evil is wonderfully adept at clouding intellects. This is one place where skepticism does well exploiting emotional responses.
Achieve a scientific breakthrough. Provide detailed testable models of how irreducibly complex biochemical systems like the bacterial flagellum could have emerged by material mechanisms. I don't give this much hope, but if you could pull this off, intelligent design would have a lot of backpedaling to do.
[And finally] Paint a more appealing world picture. Skepticism is at heart an austere enterprise. It works by negation. It makes a profession of shooting things down. This doesn't set well with a public that delights in novel possibilities. In his Pensées, Blaise Pascal wrote, "People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive." Pascal was not talking about people merely believing what they want to believe, as in wish-fulfillment. Rather, he was talking about people being swept away by attractive ideas that capture their heart and imagination. Poll after poll indicates that for most people evolution does not provide a compelling vision of life and the world. Providing such a vision is in my view skepticism's overriding task if it is to unseat intelligent design. Good luck.

87

What is the difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design?

by somebodylovesme in

jw
friends

drawing once again from the infinite wisdom of this board.... i'm having a hard time figuring out the distinction between creationism and intelligent design... is id just creationism with a pronounced christian tie?

thanks in advance.

slm

ThiChi

Here is why I feel ID may have merit:

A method for design detection. There's much discussion about the validity of specified complexity as a method for design detection, but judging by the response it has elicited over the last four years, this method is not going away. Some scholars (like Wesley Elsberry here) think it merely codifies an argument from ignorance. Others (like Paul Davies) think that it's onto something important. The point is that there are major players who are not intelligent design proponents who disagree. Such disagreement indicates that there are issues of real intellectual merit to be decided and that we're not dealing with a crank theory (at least not one that's obviously so).
Irreducibly complex biochemical systems. These are systems like the bacterial flagellum. They exhibit specified complexity. Moreover, the biological community does not have a clue how they emerged by material mechanisms. The great promise of Darwinian and other naturalistic accounts of evolution was precisely to show how known material mechanisms operating in known ways could produce all of biological complexity. That promise is now increasingly recognized as unfulfilled (and perhaps unfulfillable). Franklin Harold, not a design proponent, in his most recent book for Oxford University Press, The Way of the Cell, states "There are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system, only a variety of wishful speculations." AlanFs "Ifs"? Intelligent design contends that our ignorance here comprises not minor gaps in our knowledge of biological systems that promise readily to submit to tried-and-true mechanistic models, but rather indicates vast conceptual lacunae that are bridgeable only by radical ideas like design.
Challenge to the status quo. Let's face it, in educated circles Darwinism and other mechanistic accounts of evolution are utterly status quo. That has advantages and disadvantages for proponents like yourselves. On the one hand, it means that the full resources of the scientific and educational establishment are behind you, and you can use them to squelch dissent. On the other hand, and especially to the extent that you are heavy-handed in enforcing materialist orthodoxy, it means that you are in danger of alienating the younger generation, which thrives on rebellion against the status quo. Intelligent design appeals to the rebelliousness of youth.
The disconnect between high and mass culture. It's the educated elite that love evolution and the materialist science it helps to underwrite. On the other hand, the masses are by and large convinced of intelligent design. What's more, the masses ultimately hold the purse strings for the educated elite (in the form of state education, research funding, scholarships, etc.). This disconnect can be exploited. The advantage that biological evolution has had thus far is providing a theoretical framework, however empirically inadequate, to account for the emergence of biological complexity. The disadvantage facing the intelligent-design-supporting masses is that they've had to rely almost exclusively on pretheoretic design intuitions. Intelligent design offers to replace those pretheoretic intuitions with a rigorous design-theoretic framework that underwrites those intuitions.
An emerging research community. Intelligent design is attracting bright young scholars who are totally committed to developing intelligent design as a research program. We're still thin on the ground, but the signs I see are very promising indeed. It's not enough merely to detect design. Once it's detected, it must be shown how design leads to biological insights that could not have been obtained by taking a purely materialist outlook. I'm beginning to see glimmers of a thriving design-theoretic research program.

87

What is the difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design?

by somebodylovesme in

jw
friends

drawing once again from the infinite wisdom of this board.... i'm having a hard time figuring out the distinction between creationism and intelligent design... is id just creationism with a pronounced christian tie?

thanks in advance.

slm

ThiChi

Farkel;

""Nice little statement, but that statement is not an argument. That statement is meaningless and in fact could be turned back to you: trying to argue with a true believer is like trying to suck water out of a pound of sand. Don't you see how foolish such "comebacks" are? They mean nothing. They just make the one who states them feel better and hope people are too stupid to know how stupid they really are.""

I agree 100%!!. The "Medicine" Comment was a come back to AlanF?s remark about "Reasoning with IDs is like trying picking up Mercury with your fingers" or something stupid like that. By saying this, I was making a point. I am so happy you picked it up. And it seems my point was made, since now your remarks really apply to AlanF.

Good call Farkel!!

""Not correct. The only difference is that you cannot defend your position, and then claim false humility, and claim arrogance on Alan's behalf because you cannot defend your position.""

You need to reread my posts. I make no claims on the issue at hand, except that some claims by ID have merit which AlanF can?t disprove. I posted an example. If you disagree with my example, I respect that.

In fact, the few claims AlainF has made (in-between his insults and "Comebacks") I have only asked why AlainF?s claims were not backed up by reasons, or why would you only post one side of a debate? Fair questions. I have insulted no position, or issue of fact. I, however will continue to point out these tactics when they happen.

As an Example, here is how AlanF treats people:

"": It is not unreasonable to expect that both sides of a debate would be presented so everyone??s viewpoint can be considered.

It was, you moron -- at the conference""

See what I mean? The issue was not what happened at the conference, but that he pointed us all to his web site to read his side of the debate, without the other side?s response or rebuttal. That was the issue at hand. I always suspect this one-sided tactic. Its too JW-ish.

Now, look at his reply. I feel I am dealing with a 16 year old. Very pathetic response, using your standards, right, Farkel?

AlanF?s insults, name calling, and not being able to address the real issues shows his closed mindedness, IMHO. Not posting the rebuttal of the person he was debating with is very telling too. I would guess the Good Doctor creamed AlainF. But, who knows? He did not post the rebuttal......

And then, after all this, we are expected to believe he holds the key (or the mature, thinking mind) to explain how the universe was made? Give me a break!

51

My Gas Guzzlers

by Princess in

gas guzzling excursion in front, land cruiser (not really a guzzler but still the dreaded suv) and isuzu npr (not an suv but a guzzler.).

there you have it folks.

all my sins (and steve too) in my driveway.. now i know i'm not alone.

ThiChi

Realist: If you ever find yourself in the Palm Springs area, let me know....it is a blast to drive.

26

US Condemned over rights abuses

by Simon in

the organisation said america's offensive against global terrorism was "bankrupt of vision" and had "made the world a more dangerous place".

"sacrificing human rights in the name of security at home, turning a blind eye to abuses abroad and using pre-emptive military force where and when it chooses, have neither increased security nor ensured liberty," she said.. the world should have expected the shocking photographs of iraqi prisoners being tortured at abu ghraib prison in iraq, ms khan said.

"this is the logical consequence of the relentless pursuit of the war on terror since 11 september.

ThiChi

"""If you want to have a war have a war - didn't jehovah teach you anything?""

LOL, God, I wish we were all in one place having a brew and a cigar right now......

14

Six Flags shouldn't have let morbidly obese man on roller coaster

by ThiChi in

i'm sorry, but i can't get this picture out of my mind, a 365 pound man flying through the air....

six flags shouldn't have let morbidly obese man on roller coaster.

six flags darien lake, n.y., amusement park in will pay $3.95 million to a man who sustained a large abdominal hernia after being ejected from the park's superman--ride of steel roller coaster.

ThiChi

That is the type of society we live in. I get this litigation e-mail each week, and it would blow you away what juries award people.....

Like this one....

Woman who fell exiting elevator blamed its alignment with floor of lobby

A woman who claimed a lumbar injury requiring fusion as a result of a fall while exiting a hospital elevator, settled a premises liability claim against the hospital and a negligent maintenance claim against the elevator manufacturer for $660,000. Denise DeLao claimed that, due to an elevator malfunction at Sequoia Hospital in Redwood City, Calif., when the doors opened and she stepped out, the floor of the elevator was higher than that of the lobby, causing her to stumble. She sued Schindler Elevator Corp., Morristown, N.J., and Sequoia. Sequoia blamed Schindler and Schindler claimed that DeLao was at fault for not looking where she was going. DeLao settled with Sequoia for $35,000, then with Schindler for $625,000. Haskin v. Union Pacific Railroad Co.

36

If things turn ugly for the Western world, will you run back to "Mother"?

by True North in

jw
friends

who knows what will come in the years ahead from terrorism, global warming, conflict over natural resources, proliferation of wmd, et al.?

it's not hard to imagine truly horrific things happening.

i don't think it's likely, but perhaps one day the major powers might even respond to religion-related terrorism by joining together to restrain or control religion under the banner of the u.n.. such events certainly could trigger a response from the fears/phobias that ex-jws may carry around with them due to years of wt indoctrination -- however much repressed these are at most times.

ThiChi

You make me want to run out and rent the movie Soilent Green.........

Valis::: I hit my post limit.........

Very true! The Pinz can ford up to 30 in of water, 4x4 on the fly front & rear locking differentials, it even came with rifle racks!!

Then to top it off, I met a Marine who sold me about six cases of MREs!! (they tast pretty good...)

Meetme at Burning Man, and you can drive it!!

You are right! They were used in T3.......

14

Six Flags shouldn't have let morbidly obese man on roller coaster

by ThiChi in

i'm sorry, but i can't get this picture out of my mind, a 365 pound man flying through the air....

six flags shouldn't have let morbidly obese man on roller coaster.

six flags darien lake, n.y., amusement park in will pay $3.95 million to a man who sustained a large abdominal hernia after being ejected from the park's superman--ride of steel roller coaster.

ThiChi

I'm sorry, but I can't get this picture out of my mind, a 365 pound Man flying through the air....

Six Flags shouldn't have let morbidly obese man on roller coaster Six Flags Darien Lake, N.Y., amusement park in will pay $3.95 million to a man who sustained a large abdominal hernia after being ejected from the park's Superman--Ride of Steel roller coaster. In 1999, Michael Dwaileebe, a 365-pound man in his 30s, was propelled up and out of his seat as the coaster traveled over a "camel-hump" hill. He fell forward, bounced off another car and fell to 8 to 10 feet. He sued Six Flags and the ride's distributor, Intamin Ltd., claiming that the lap-restraint bar could not accommodate someone his size and the park should not have allowed him to board the ride. The New York jury assigned 90% negligence to Six Flags and 10% to Intamin, but that the latter's negligence was not a proximate cause of the accident.

Dwaileebe v. Six Flags Darien

87

What is the difference between Creationism and Intelligent Design?

by somebodylovesme in

jw
friends

drawing once again from the infinite wisdom of this board.... i'm having a hard time figuring out the distinction between creationism and intelligent design... is id just creationism with a pronounced christian tie?

thanks in advance.

slm

ThiChi

""Whatever. But your statement, "Too bad your site did not include Dr. Kindall's reply.........I wonder why?" strongly suggests that I'm hiding something, namely, Kindall's reply which I don't want anyone to see because it might contain arguments I can't or don't want to address. On the contrary, I want people to see his reply, because it's a typical example of creationist "arguments from ignorance" (i.e., "I can't understand how this can be true so it isn't."). So you jumped to a conclusion that you thought would prejudice other creationists against my other statements. Isn't that right, ThiChi?""

It is not unreasonable to expect that both sides of a debate would be presented so everyone?s viewpoint can be considered. Yes, I would like to hear the good Doctor?s rebuttals. Your reason given for not posting the other?s response shows the closed minded elitism of some, which is so common today.

"""This is why I said that arguing these matters with creationists is like trying to pick up mercury with your fingers"""

I understand. Trying to reason with an Evo-Atheist is like trying to give medicine to a dead man. The difference between you and myself is I don?t pretend to know it all, and you do.

All I know is that there are creditable arguments from the ID side that needs debate.

Regarding your "if" arguments, the very same could be said for the other side on a good number of levels. Why the double standard of proof?

23

American Idol final: Diana or Fantasia

by Mulan in

i thought both girls sang amazingly last night.

both had one song that wasn't so great, so the contest was a draw for me.

since simon so obviously favors fantasia i voted 3 times for diana.

ThiChi

Diana is my vote......she has gone far for only 16....