Posts by Saintbertholdt

323

Question and answers for fisherperson regardingy time at bethel

by _Morpheus in

so fisherperson sent me a pm asking a bunch of questions re my time at beth hell.

rather than respond in a pm i will post the q/a here as i have nothing to hide.

q:what years did you serve in brooklyn bethel?

Saintbertholdt

Sweatshop culture :)

"Sisters would go home crying because they were rude and mean to each other.... It could be a lot to deal with."

I bet the beatings continued way into the night.

29

To DA or not to DA, that is the question?

by dubstepped in

let me preface this by saying that i don't expect anyone here to make my decision for me.

i do however note that like the bible says, in the multitude of counselors there is wisdom, and this is a huge decision, so i wanted to put it out there for discussion.

i really appreciate your words of wisdom, as this affects not just me but my wife also, as we find ourselves in the same boat.

Saintbertholdt

FreeGirl2006 is correct. Don't play by their rules and don't give them power over you.

I Disassociated myself and of course I had to pay the price. In retrospect it was silly of me.

323

Question and answers for fisherperson regardingy time at bethel

by _Morpheus in

so fisherperson sent me a pm asking a bunch of questions re my time at beth hell.

rather than respond in a pm i will post the q/a here as i have nothing to hide.

q:what years did you serve in brooklyn bethel?

Saintbertholdt

Fisherperson hand me that flashlight!

_Morpheus what was the general feeling like to work at Bethel? I mean if you work at IBM its more formal than Google for example. So what was the corporate culture like?

Were there any undercurrents in the 'company'? For example I used to work for a company where although it was all smiles for the clients, in the backroom everyone was on edge about layoffs.

Oh yes and if you answer untruthfully I've got these crocodile clips and this battery...

27

Options for the EU? - A cartoon from the Lebanese Daily Star

by fulltimestudent in

1. Greece should default on all its sovereign debt. No-one will want to lend the country any more money for about a decade but now Greece also has zero debt. These are both actually very good things.

2. Re-introduce the Drachma.

3. Calculate government expenditure for ten years, which includes pensions, government salaries, public works expenditure etc. Announce the printing of the needed funds for the first year at 100% of funds. Reduce the printing every year by 10% so that by year 10 Greece will be printing 0% additional currency for running the government side of the economy. This is done so that the currency deflates with calculated clockwork regularity over the next decade.

4. Announce that Greece will embark on a government policy of fiscal prudence in the 21st century. This means: "Spending less than you earn". Apologize to all debtors for defaulting and explain that Greece cannot accept any more bad debt and that if continued Greece would remain impoverished and effectively descend into a form of European slavery.

5. Ask the European union to keep good trade relations. If the European union are unwilling establish preferred trade relations with all the Mediterranean nations the were formerly part of the ancient historic Carthage. Also do the same with the BRICS nations. Drop all import and export tariffs for these countries.

6. ?

7. Profit

Footnotes:

Addressing president Obama's concerns: NATO existed before the Euro was implemented and can exist without it also. What is better? Defaulting on bad debt or accepting more debt to not pay it back anyway? Addressing European political concerns: Kicking the can down the road is just a convenience for short term political thinking.

..

But whats actually seems to be most probable: Greece will accept more debt, remain impoverished and will therefore certainly never recover. It can't pay the debt back, can't grow economically with this black cloud over it and will systemically drag down Europe with it over the next couple of decades. As long as current politicians don't have to deal with the actual fallout of the bad debt and risk their re-election campaigns this will continue indefinitely.

But this is nothing compared to the USA: 17 Trillion and counting... Where will it stop? Probably about 30 to 40 trillion over the next decade or so.

At some point in the future the markets have to recognize the inevitable: What the hell were we all thinking?

We did this. We should man up. Should our children pay for OUR fiscal imprudence? We're all credit crazy assholes and its ALL OUR fault.

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi OrphanCrow,

Thanks for the link.

There's another line of evidence that may shed some light on this:

From 1 April 1929 Watchtower: "The friends at Berlin have sold during the past twelve months nearly one million books and booklets, and that is more than were sold in all Germany through this colporteur work In the year 1923."

So they're comparing the 1923 numbers to 1929 indicating upsurges in numbers. And 1923 was still building up to the 1925 prophesy so they're effectively saying business is booming.

Now I think Garbe is getting his figures from Watchtowers of the period.

The 1 April 1932 Watchtower: "The wording of this resolution has been sent from this office to all the companies in Germany, which at the same time were informed that the Magdeburg company passed this resolution. Thereupon, until now, 509 companies of Germany, representing 17,000 friends, have written us that they have passed the same resolution."

I can see a growth of 3000 in one year considering the lowest point of the Great depression is still one year away. My guesswork: Now between 1933 and 35 I'm personally guestimating an additional 2000 based upon the reported memorial attendance of 1933.

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

From Nathan Knorr. The book was a collaboration between Knorr and Cole. The book was presented as an "outside/independent" voice at the time it was published, without revealing that Cole was actually a Jehovah's Witness himself.

I have read parts of Cole's book. I was not aware Knorr had anything to do with it.

Like I said it just doesn't gel with the 1927 published numbers which are broken down by congregation.

I don't know how to square this circle :)

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi OrphanCrow,

I hope I'm no too tiring.

The numbers that the WTS claim as their own are padded with many Bible Students who did not follow the Rutherford/JW doctrine and who had already left to form groups such as "Free Bible Students Association". Those Bible Students who had broke away from the WTS would also have worn the purple triangle in the camps but they would not have considered themselves Jehovah's witnesses or part of the WTS.

You are correct that there were other organizations, among others also splinter groups like 'The friends of Truth'. But the questions I would ask is were the member numbers significant and would those who disagreed with the Tower not be ostracized by JW members in the camps? Would there not be some documentary evidence of this? Also if the Free Bible Students Association went back to Russell's teachings then military service would become a conscience issue again. Although undesirable some German bible students fought in the great war.

For a modern comparison: An organization like the Watchman. How many adherents do they really have? And like the older organizations they just end up doing Watchtower bashing. Friends of Truth did this specifically.

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi there Orhpancrow,

Marley Cole, in his book The New World Society, gives the figure for JWs in Germany in 1928 as 9,755. That number also originated from WTS records.

It does not seem plausible that the increase in Germany during the five years between 1928 and 1933 was over double. If the WTS numbers are to be believed, then you also have to believe that there were 12,245 Germans who converted during those 5 years - almost 2500 per year (using 22,000 as the number in 1933).

To address the reported 22 000 number in 1933.

Firstly are there numbers to support that value in the 1920's? (Before 1925 and the drop off?)

Yes. You can refer to Detlef Garbe Between Resistance and Martyrdom: Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich – Page 47. Jehovah's Witnesses already numbered 20 000 in 1922.

So 1925 comes and goes and many in Germany are disappointed with new worlds no show and numbers decline. What happens between 1928 and 1933? The Great depression starts in earnest. Jehovah's Witness numbers always grow rapidly in times of uncertainty.

For comparable growth the Nazi party went from only 2.6% of the public vote in 1928 according to Encyclopaedia Britannica 2008 to a coalition MAJORITY in 1933! So I would argue that Watchtower growth in the face of German Fascism and the Great Depression is not just plausible but mandatory. Also as mentioned before the Watchtower is very particular in reporting accurate memorial attendance numbers. To fudge them would be something that I would find very hard to believe.

Finally I don't know where Marley Cole got the numbers because the 15 July 1927 Watchtower gives a breakdown of memorial attendance by individual congregations. The American and German numbers are comparable upon visual inspection. I have not tabulated the exact numbers but there's 15000+ attendees in Germany at least (it would seem), so I am puzzled by Cole's numbers.

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi Orphancrow,

Now either mass conversions occurred or the coast was now clear for inactive witnesses to return to the fold. Which is more plausible?Both are plausible. I think both reasons account for the increase. I don't see why it has to be one or the other.

Let me clarify why I think the bulk of the increase is due to a return of previously inactive JW's.

I have to admit that there are reports of Nazi soldiers becoming JW's. However I will also state that because those conversions were viewed as significant victories for the Watchtower those instances have been well reported. Could a person argue that the JW conduct and philosophy was so compelling that thousands of soldiers converted after the war? I guess you could perhaps make a case for a few hundred but even that figure would be quite optimistic.

So why would I submit that something else is happening between 1947 and 48?

I think the 1933 number of 22 000 is reasonable (based on the memorial figures and the reported adherents). Erich Frost reports the 1936 numbers. He may even have been inflating the actual numbers but he only gets to 7600.

So between 1935-45 approximately 14 400 witnesses evaporate. These are witnesses who support Paul Balzereits conciliatory tone and use the 1933 letter from overseer Martin Harbeck as argument to follow the Nazi ban. They still accept the theology though. After 1936 those inactive witnesses either have to fall in with the Nazi state or go to jail. The concentration camp numbers support that they remain inactive.

In 1946 the first numbers to emerge state that there are over 11 000 Witnesses in Germany. This aligns with the concentration camp numbers as many cannot return to their lands of origin yet. In 1947 the Witnesses increase to over 15 000. This can be explained by radio broadcasts that the witnesses are allowed to make which may convert many and call many who are inactive.

In 1947 Germany starts to return to some measure of civil society. Before that military law is still prime. In 1947 the first commercial airlines begin to operate where before only military aircraft are allowed. Men like Hoss who ran Auschwitz are prosecuted and executed which is a major indicator that a new free society will be born. Also in 1947 Knorr and Covington visit Germany. Now if you adhered to the Watchtower dogma in the 1930's but became inactive, these new unfolding events would allow you to return in safety. There were even reports that some camp survivors did not want people to attend JW meetings who had not suffered in the camps. The Watchtower reported that the accounts were false and on the contrary they made special efforts to welcome people back (well that's according to the Watchtower).

So my argument rests on the ideas that although there were converts from the military that it would not account for the massive increase in 47 to 48. Most probably the political climate allowed the inactive to become active again.

Now I can argue your point of view as well. Lets assume that of the 14 400 witnesses that adhere to the Nazi ban a significant percentage are male and between 18 and 45 years old. They are conscripted and join the military. After the war they now return to civil society and their former religion. It would not look good for the Tower to report that former witnesses who had joined the military are now back in the fold. This would not make for good watchtower or awake! material. What does make good reading is former SS camp soldiers converting because of the sterling example they saw within witness conduct etc.

So I could see your point of view, but only sort of. I may be wrong about my conclusions because I was not physically there to see the events for myself, however I think they are reasonably based on the figures and facts as I see them. Perhaps you have some other evidence to change my mind?

16

A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany

by Saintbertholdt in

what percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.

what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?

(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).

Saintbertholdt

Hi CalebinFloroda,

According to the Holocaust Museum (Washington DC) site: In the Nazi years, about 10,000 Witnesses, most of them of German nationality, were imprisoned in concentration camps. After 1939, small numbers of Witnesses from Austria, Belgium, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Norway, and Poland (some of them refugees from Germany) were arrested and deported to Dachau, Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, Ravensbrück, Auschwitz, Mauthausen, and other concentration camps. An estimated 2,500 to 5,000 Witnesses died in the camps or prisons. More than 200 men were tried by the German War Court and executed for refusing military service.--Jehovah’s Witnesses: Wartime Persecution.

I can confidently state that Russian JW's were among the group. To clarify I consider the Ukraine as part of the Russian group because by 1940 it was partially annexed by the Soviet Union and for the most part Ukraine fought alongside the Soviets against the Nazis. After WW II it was incorporated into the Soviet Union) So why can I state that Russian JW's were in concentration camps?

Because in the 2003-2005 Swiss banking restitution which was done for Holocaust survivors, for the first time Central European and Russian JW's were recognized and compensated. The numbers compensated break down as follows:

Croatia 3
Hungary 12
Moldova 186
Poland 109
Romania 243
Russian Federation 23
Ukraine 1 300

Total 1 876