My belated condolences, Mulan. I do remember Brother Zinser. He was, indeed, a very nice man. I was a young pioneer lad in Seattle before I moved south.
TMS
Posts by TMS
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8WT policy on funerals and memorials?
by Mulan incan anyone tell me the current policy for funerals and memorial services?.
mom was here today and evening, stayed for dinner, and we talked about the services for henry.
she wants there to be a portion of the service where people in attendance can tell things they want to say about him.
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13
I Still Don't Get It
by TMS inposters on several recent threads have waxed eloquent about reforming, reorganizing, reinventing, mainstreaming jehovah's witnesses.. the comparative efficacy of internal or external pressure has been one of the subthemes.. as a former 50 year "true believer", this seems like such an exercize in futility.
if this is really an organization sponsored by the god of the universe, why dare steady the ark.
if not, why bother?.
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TMS
Hillary, Maximus:
Its obvious you're both men of personal integrity with genuine concern for others. You have my respect.
Whereas the two of you work for change, I drown in cynicism and negativism.
Your illustration of change effected in the organization by legal pressure, Hillary, is a good one, but like most changes I have observed in the WTBS, it is largely semantical. Yes, the specific sin of the banished one is no longer mentioned in the announcement(although a talk on that sin may be later given), but the congregation usually assumes the worst and the person is still shunned.
The organization has largely stayed the same. Oh yes, contact point became service meeting became rendezvous became meeting for service. Area study became book study became service center became congregation book study. For a while they took away my middle initial and TMS became TS. Then it became TMS again. Probation became private or public reproof. And on and on.
You are absolutely correct in saying that money talks. Many statements for public consumption have as their primary motivation the protection of company assets. Corporations do this. It is unlikely "George Jefferson" would be a spokesperson for Denny's Restaurants without the lawsuits alleging discrimination and the subsequent large awards. Still, blacks do not feel welcome ordering breakfast at Denny's.
I sincerely hope that I am wrong about the changes you both hope to see. Don Quixote at least slowed the windmills down.
TMS
ps: My original statement on this thread contains unfortunate wording. "Waxing eloquent" implies a certain superficiality and grandstanding neither one of you employ. That phrase should be changed to "written eloquently".
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13
I Still Don't Get It
by TMS inposters on several recent threads have waxed eloquent about reforming, reorganizing, reinventing, mainstreaming jehovah's witnesses.. the comparative efficacy of internal or external pressure has been one of the subthemes.. as a former 50 year "true believer", this seems like such an exercize in futility.
if this is really an organization sponsored by the god of the universe, why dare steady the ark.
if not, why bother?.
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TMS
Posters on several recent threads have waxed eloquent about reforming, reorganizing, reinventing, mainstreaming Jehovah's Witnesses.
The comparative efficacy of internal or external pressure has been one of the subthemes.
As a former 50 year "true believer", this seems like such an exercize in futility. If this is really an organization sponsored by the God of the universe, why dare steady the ark. If not, why bother?
Are you potential reformers simply trying to prevent further victimization in yet another man-made form of tyranny? Or do you actually believe that this is/was/could be a form of worship from God?
TMS
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43
Reform....why?
by Deacon inthe organization cannot be reformed from outside; that can only come from individuals who have the guts and will to do so inside, and the determination to get rid of hardline thinking that is so strangling.
my personal desire is to see immediate change regarding the child abuse policy, and that will come.
to see a clear, quick change in the horribly inconsistent blood policy rather than drag it out over years; kids are dying in the process.enforced shunning is also an evil that they will have to deal with eventually; it's ripping them apart.. .
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TMS
As my wife and I went through some trying times that we have never chronicled in this or any other forum, she kept asking me: "Where is Jehovah in all of this?"
My initial answer was: "I don't know!"
It evolved to: "Nowhere!"
TMS
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41
Blanket Bomb Or Snipe?
by hillary_step ini wish to open a thread on a bit of a controversial issue so belt-on the self control!
my question?
why do some of us attack jws as people and who are our real targets?.
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TMS
Hillary,
Two young men in white shirts, with black ties and black pants cut across my lawn to where I was tinkering with a vehicle. I made a mental note of their Mormon "Elder" badges before they were within twenty feet.
All kinds of thoughts rushed through my head. "A Look At Mormonism", Watchtower 1962 and the expose' on the Book of Mormon that followed. But the only thing I could think of was how much they looked like two Regular Pioneers on the verge of Pioneer Service School.
I spoke in quiet tones about ancestral baptism and my years of experience with and respect for Mormons. They dropped their normal spiel and chatted naturally about Utah and Idaho and the rigors of door-to-door work. We parted amicably, almost like grandfather and grandsons.
What reason would I have to treat Jehovah's Witnesses with any less courtesy?
TMS
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45
what job could you have had?
by sleepy inhi i've just come home from cleaning windows.what an absolutely soul destroying job.. when i think of the things i could have done.. i remmember how my teachers in school used to tell me i would surely go to university and get a good job.i remmember the shock on one teachers face a few years after i left school when i told her i was a window cleaner.. i was also intrested in art and quite good at it.my grandfather who wasn't a witness offered to help me and my brother get good jobs in the art world.. we turned him down.. arrmegeddon was so soon.. anyone else like me ?.
what do you do and what could you have done?
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TMS
TheWiz, Sleepy, etc.:
Not everyone identifies with your frustration level. Some have been out for 30 years or more. Others are young enough that their lives have not been totally derailed.
Never-been-JW's would be quick to give you a "personal responsibility" lecture.
Unfortunately, I identify with everything both of you said. At the age of 58, I am just coming to grips with the reality of my religious "heritage". In two years I can start drawing a very small pension. I do intend to take classes in the things that have always interested me, but a degree at 64 would be of limited use.
Actually, I don't consider myself uneducated as much as undocumented, unrequited. All those years in menial jobs were balanced by the sense of serving the brothers and Jehovah. That was the source of my self-esteem. When that mist disappeared, the reality was not attractive.
TMS
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141
JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts
by Maximus inthe october 1 watchtower 2001 features articles on training children "properly" and dealing with a "prodigal child.
the latest inside u.s. figures reveal that 86% of jw children leave the fold, with some 29% who eventually come back for reasons of family ties, most never "reaching out.
" that means over half leave permanently.
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TMS
Anchor:
"Read it again, or disagree. Facts are facts."
**********************************************************************logic?
TMS
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141
JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts
by Maximus inthe october 1 watchtower 2001 features articles on training children "properly" and dealing with a "prodigal child.
the latest inside u.s. figures reveal that 86% of jw children leave the fold, with some 29% who eventually come back for reasons of family ties, most never "reaching out.
" that means over half leave permanently.
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TMS
Joel:
Good points. Many young people are leaving, but no where near 86%!
Java:
"Speaking of Brooklyn, does anyone know how many exit the Tower when leaving Bethel? I imagine the percentage is high, perhaps as high as exiting children. If the Society can't keep their own from jumping ship, it seems ridiculous and hyprcritical offering parents advice on a topic they fail at miserably."
This is so true. Many former Bethelites are among the most disillusioned. Seeing that it is an organization of men destroyed their fantasy of a "faithful and discreet slave".
I agree with most of what has been said on this thread, except that the figures are greatly exaggerated.
TMS
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When and where baptized
by drahcir yarrum ini thought it might be interesting to see how many here remember where and when they were baptised into the borg.
for some the memory may be too painful, but i'm curious.. me.
it was 1966 in vancouver, bc.
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TMS
Richard:
I was at the assembly at Empire Stadium in '66 when you were baptized, lingered a while to visit with apostates, who were handing out tracts at the entrance. Weren't you excited to get "Life Everlasting in Freedom of the Sons of God"?
My baptism was at the South Seattle Kingdom Hall, March '53.
TMS
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141
JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts
by Maximus inthe october 1 watchtower 2001 features articles on training children "properly" and dealing with a "prodigal child.
the latest inside u.s. figures reveal that 86% of jw children leave the fold, with some 29% who eventually come back for reasons of family ties, most never "reaching out.
" that means over half leave permanently.
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TMS
My third judicial committee experience as a naive Bible Study Servant c.1962 involved a newly baptized 12 yr old who had stolen a hot wheel type toy from K-Mart. To all of the questions(What prompted you to steal? Do you realize the reproach on Jehovah and his organization? Will you ever do this again?) he had only two words: "I dunno."
After deliberation we put him on probation for a year. This boy is now nearing 50 and long gone.The worshippers of Molech have nothing on Jehovah's Witnesses of the 20th and now 21st century. We have tossed so many children into the fire it is unreal. At the very instant in their young lives when the "desires incidental to youth" are at work, we brand them as unrepentant, incorrigible sinners, worthy of death.
TMS