This is not a "rule" that has been enforced universally. It seems that some countries have been exempted, due to cultural reasons. E.g. Denmark, the Netherlands and I’ve also heard Ireland being mentioned. Denmark and the Netherlands are known to be very liberal countries. Once, I attended an assemply in Denmark, and one elder giving a talk at that DC wore a full beard.
InquiryMan
JoinedPosts by InquiryMan
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62
Beards are evil, but do you know why?
by free2beme inas a witness, i knew several men who attempted to grow beards.
when they did, and attended meetings, it did not take long to be talked to by elders and told, "as spiritual men, they should not display an outward form of rebellion.
" why was this a form of rebellion?
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(UN)Expected development
by InquiryMan inpart 1: my family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.
we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.
before we stopped, i served as an elder.
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InquiryMan
Thank you FreeWilly for your support. Although not many have replied, several hundred has read it, and it means something to me that others who have been or are in the same position know and even drop a line or two.
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Your first talk at the Theorcatic Ministry School, do you remember it?
by JH ini do, i had to read ezekiel 9: (1-11)
and he proceeded to call out in my ears with a loud voice, saying: have those giving their attention to the city come near, each one with his weapon in his hand for bringing ruin!
there were six men coming from the direction of the upper gate that faces to the north, each one with his weapon for smashing in his hand; and there was one man in among them clothed with linen, with a secretarys inkhorn at his hips, and they proceeded to come in and stand beside the copper altar.
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InquiryMan
Leviticus 20: d the adulteress must be put to death. 11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads. 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 14 " 'If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you. 15 " 'If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal. 16 " 'If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. 17 " 'If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible. 18 " 'If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people. 19 " 'Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible. 20 " 'If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless. 21 " 'If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless. 22 " 'Keep all my decrees and laws and follow them, so that the land where I am bringing you to live may not vomit you out. 23 You must not live according to the customs of the nations I am going to drive out before you. Because they did all these things, I abhorred them. 24 But I said to you, "You will possess their land; I will give it to you as an inheritance, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has set you apart from the nations. 25 " 'You must therefore make a distinction between clean and unclean animals and between unclean and clean birds. Do not defile yourselves by any animal or bird or anything that moves along the ground—those which I have set apart as unclean for you. 26 You are to be holy to me [c] because I, the LORD, am holy, and I have set you apart from the nations to be my own. 27 " 'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.' " Rather touche subjects to explore for a nine year old, if you ask me. My parents weren’t even baptized when I had to give it... (However, I am forever grateful, that I never had to give the no 4 talk on Masturbation from YPA.)
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20
(UN)Expected development
by InquiryMan inpart 1: my family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.
we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.
before we stopped, i served as an elder.
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InquiryMan
My father phoned this morning, concerning another family matter. I however, did bring up, in a calm manner, the incident that happened yesterday. He stated that he was disappointed with us, but had not done anything yet. He would ponder upon it. He promised to let us know if he did proceed to tell the PO. This time, being somewhat prepared, taking the advice given here as well as from my wife, I did appeal to his common sense, making it clear that as adults we cannot expect one another to take the same choices even though we’re in the same family. I reminded him that his choice on becoming a witness as an adult did create a split within his own family, but they in the end did respect it. Although having differing views, I pleaded that tolerance and mutual respect should be shown. I also stated that I was surprised that he would let the consideration to his own conscience go above family relations and also that a further development such relations would be hurt both ways. That it would inflict them as well. They agreed on letting our youngest child be with them on monday, when we’re both working. They agreed to that (seeing their grand child for a whole day ;-). They are not of the preachy sort though. In fact, even though my father being an elder, I do not remember even one time when he looked up a passage in the Bible to discipline us etc. I also stated to him that we cannot be expected to live in a void, a vacuum, having stopped association for close to four years. Would he expect us to abide by all witness rules, when not enjoying the "perks" of being part of the congregation in an active way? I also stated that my observance of christmas, was merely of keeping a cultural tradition held in high esteem in our country. In fact, 99 per cent celebrate christmas. Only JWs, jews and some moslems abstain. He told that many emotions on his part welled up, and seemed to imply that we did not care about that. I did state, that as far as that goes, I do respect their way of life, thus abstain from bringing up negative points on their religion or even divulging information I could have passed on that may have affected their faith system adversely. Although difficult, respect should go both ways. I also did refer to some points mentioned on page 99 in the Pay Attention book that was useful. So, right now, we’ll just see what happens. Concerning my sister’s reaction. She was not prepared that we did celebrate christmas, but obviously she is a good actress or rather concealer of surprise. She thought I acted strangely by being so normal (although internally I did sort of panick, and were talking in a rather nervous manner - at least that was how I felt about it). She sort of felt that I should be "embarassed" or something like that for being caught celebrating. I did state to my father, that I of course have to stand for my choices, and felt no need to be ashamed. She had mentioned that our living room was full of decorations (I guess I had done the same if I had been in her position, so no offense was taken on my part for that). This obviously took my father with great surprise and disappointment, even bringing him to come here solely to see for himself (which I think, did him no good, he could have made a phone call if he felt in need to validate it). However, today, the conversation took place in a calm manner, me being more prepared and able to reason (not from the scriptures ;-) with common sense and decency. He was also concerned what would happen if other witnesses came by. (Of course that would not happen anyway, cause they have not seen the need to come very often - I think altogether twice in four years.) Wouldn’t I feel the need to explain to them what they "discovered"? By all means no, I do not have to apologize for leading a normal life, although that meaning from a witness point of view have returned to the world (or to the vomit so to speak). Also, we cannot live our lives in order to please others.
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20
(UN)Expected development
by InquiryMan inpart 1: my family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.
we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.
before we stopped, i served as an elder.
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InquiryMan
Thanks, have already printed the necessary pages.
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20
(UN)Expected development
by InquiryMan inpart 1: my family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.
we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.
before we stopped, i served as an elder.
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InquiryMan
I handed in my "Pay Attention to Yourselves and all the Flock" when resigning as an elder. Does anyone have a valid link to a site where the book is avaiable online or as an pdf?
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20
(UN)Expected development
by InquiryMan inpart 1: my family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.
we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.
before we stopped, i served as an elder.
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InquiryMan
Thanks for your input. I am not of the "fighting" type. I just want to be left alone, living my life quietly and having at least a minimum of contact with my family. I do not interfere at all with their religious affairs and do not attack it. I also do not try to persuade them to follow my path in any way. I agree a lot with the last input, What is he about to achieve? He’s actually the one initiating the eventual breakup of family ties.
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20
(UN)Expected development
by InquiryMan inpart 1: my family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.
we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.
before we stopped, i served as an elder.
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InquiryMan
I do not really know. When we started the fading, we did say that we chose not to DA in order not to make it difficult for our family to socialize with us and vice versa. We did however, not want to remain hostages to a belief system we do not abide to. So, for some years, I guess the status have been. nothing asked, nothing said. And we’ve got along quite allright in that line. However, my father, being stubborn and an elder, is obviously the hardliner in the family. I think however, it resembles a lot to taliban and nazis to report their own family members. After all, no one else in the congregation is affected, we make no claims of being JWs anymore to neighbours, colleagues etc. It really just complicates matters. What does he really accomplish by doing this? Just to cleanse his own conscience, but destroyting relations completely with me and the rest of the family. It will also affect my children, making the distance to their grandparents even bigger, although he stated that that was not affected. JWs being a registered religious community in my country, has to abide by the law. It explicitly states that in order to withdraw from a religious organization one has to either persinally give instructions to so to the religious community or send a written message. Unless this is done, it would not be valed. Thus, a unilateral statement from the JWs that "... is no longer a Jehovah’s witness" would be invalid unless a person has agreed to that being said.
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20
(UN)Expected development
by InquiryMan inpart 1: my family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.
we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.
before we stopped, i served as an elder.
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InquiryMan
PART 1: My family and I stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago. We did the fade thing, thus we are neither DA’s nor DF. Before we stopped, I served as an elder. The past four years we’ve been celebrating christmas. We’ve had christmas decorations, including a tree the past three years. My family has accepted our fading nicely, I must say. I do not confront them with my opinions, and they do not interfere with my new way of life. Thus, some aspects of our lives, are simplye not discussed, e.g. Christmas. Today, I was sleeping on the couch, when my daughter suddenly wakes me up, stating that my sister and her sons are standing outside, making a unexpected visit. At first I sort of panicked, realizing I could not hide the decorations. The panic lasted only for a few seconds though. Then I hugged my sister in the entrance, and she smiled as she always does. I guess she was sort of mentally prepared that we celebrate christmas, and that she had prepared her sons as well, because there was no comment or reactions whatsoever. I guess I was the nervous one, wandering about and chatting unstoppingly for some minutes... Now, her two sons are falling to sleep in the christmas decorated house of her «astrayed» brother. Looking back, I think it is just ok that she has seen it, and accepting it in such a gracious way. I guess one reason is that we respect each other lives. She has chosen not be told details for me abandoning our previous common beliefs and I have respected that. I guess she’ll just keep it to herself what she saw, unless she is being directly asked by our JW parents. Just wanted to share it. A happy new year to all of you. PART 2: (the day after) I guess I was premature as to assume that my family is more "tolerant" than others. It seems my sister did mention do our parents that we had "full" christmas. (We have not been to meetings for close to 3,5 years). When I came home from work today, my father suddenly showed up (instead of my sister, who should pick up the boys). He had a stern look, stating he wanted to have a word with my wife and myself. He looked knowlingly towards the christmas tree, almost satisfied to have seen the evidence personally. Obviously, he wanted to see for himselv before turning us in. His conscience did not allow him not to tell the elders that we celebrate christmas. We have deliberately not DA just not to make it difficult for the immediate family to have at least some contact with us. We pleaded with him what was the point to bring it up, we have not tried to live a double life, just a normal life. So, now, after almost 4 years, we’re about to face "judgement". So if he decided, to go further with it (I think he will, he is a rather stubborn person), the PO will be notified. He is younger than me, and his family used to be our closest friends. So now, he is is sort of responsible of making our fate as related to family connections. I do not fully know my sister’s part in this, perhaps she just made a passing remark, not realizing that our elder father would react that strongly. I am, however, surprised that he was so naive as to think that we’ve been living in som some sort of vacuum these years. We have not done anything to make a false impression, just not mentioning things straightforwardly. My parents have heard our children remarks on gifts, family visits, christmas carols etc. I am not angry, just feeling sad, and disappointed and feeling resignation. I’ll keep you informed on what’s happening.
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An unexpected visit
by InquiryMan inmy family and i stopped being active witnesses some 3 and a half years ago.
we did the fade thing, thus we are neither das nor df.
before we stopped, i served as an elder.
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InquiryMan
I guess I was premature as to assume that my family is more "tolerant" than others. It seems my sister did mention do our parents that we had "full" christmas. (We have not been to meetings for close to 3,5 years). When I came home from work today, my father suddenly showed up (instead of my sister, who should pick up the boys). He had a stern look, stating he wanted to have a word with my wife and myself. He looked knowlingly towards the christmas tree, almost satisfied to have seen the evidence personally. Obviously, he wanted to see for himselv before turning us in. His conscience did not allow him not to tell the elders that we celebrate christmas. We have deliberately not DA just not to make it difficult for the immediate family to have at least some contact with us. We pleaded with him what was the point to bring it up, we have not tried to live a double life, just a normal life. So, now, after almost 4 years, we’re about to face "judgement". So if he decided, to go further with it (I think he will, he is a rather stubborn person), the PO will be notified. He is younger than me, and his family used to be our closest friends. So now, he is is sort of responsible of making our fate as related to family connections. I do not fully know my sister’s part in this, perhaps she just made a passing remark, not realizing that our elder father would react that strongly. I am, however, surprised that he was so naive as to think that we’ve been living in som some sort of vacuum these years. We have not done anything to make a false impression, just not mentioning things straightforwardly. My parents have heard our children remarks on gifts, family visits, christmas carols etc. I am not angry, just feeling sad, and disappointed and feeling resignation. I’ll keep you informed on what’s happening.