Posts by trevor

171

The vote is in: SCIENCE vs RELIGION......who won?

by Terry in

history has demonstrated:.

religion is following orders by implicitly trusting someone or something.. science asks questions.. religion purports to answer questions.. science seeks to disprove its own conclusions.. religion seeks to reinforce its own dogma.. science is error-correction toward adjusting for realities as they unfold.. religion internalizes against reality by mocking up a substitute.. science is the most recent development of the human mind.

technology proves science to be successful in advancing human progress.. religion disdains human progress and waits for the end.

trevor

I don’t get it. Terry opens up a no holds barred, frank discussion. He states his case firmly and with passion. More than this he backs his statements with logic and facts. We are invited to agree or disagree. He is accused of ‘blindness to other's opinions.’ Blindness to others opinions is a head in sand - I won’t talk to you approach. Terry answers and responds to people with his view of how the world works.

I think this is a superb thread and I mostly agree with Terry but do not endorse his dismissal of James Thomas’ philosophy. On other threads I have disagreed with Terry. He always took the trouble to answer and back his answers with thoughtful argument.

I was impressed by Terry’s approach to reality that stated that if something has no identifiable features then it does not exist in reality. A lot of people would be more aware and live happier lives if they used this as a starting point. It does not mean that this approach is infallible but it is a good starting point.

On another thread Terry stated that all emotion is generated in an attempt to protect the things we have consciously placed value on. Change the values and the emotion follows. I thought he had got it all the wrong way round until I fully examined the concept.

My ramblings are an attempt to say that robust debate is the number one way to learn and grow. The process involves disagreeing and stating why. As a result of such debates I have learned to think more objectively. I personally don’t want to have my ears tickled, I want to be challenged, ridiculed and pushed screaming into the glare of reality.

Open disagreement is not blindness but demonstrates a willingness to be challenged on our views and defend them. The loser ends up with improved vision.

28

What will Jehovah's Witnesses do when they realize they've been lied to

by cultswatter in

i think there might be a mass revolt.

imagine a mob of 100,000 angry dubs in newyork smashing down wt 25 using telephone posts as battering rams.

then the looting and the destruction of every wt property in newyork and elsewhere.

trevor

You have REALLY got to quit all this lying, and being such a hateful apostate!!

It's in my nature to lie and it has got worse since I grew horns.

28

What will Jehovah's Witnesses do when they realize they've been lied to

by cultswatter in

i think there might be a mass revolt.

imagine a mob of 100,000 angry dubs in newyork smashing down wt 25 using telephone posts as battering rams.

then the looting and the destruction of every wt property in newyork and elsewhere.

trevor

Active Jehovah’s Witnesses are in a hypnotic trance believing that the Watchtower Society speaks for God. They believe that God cannot lie. Whatever they are told is the truth. Anyone that challenges this belief is avoided.

If they are told that the end will come within a generation of 1914 and a generation is 70 years - this is the truth. If they are told a generation is 90 years - this is the truth. If they are then told that the references to a generation have a vaguer application and the end is not coming within that generation - this is the truth. If they are told their Society never sais the end would come within a generation - this is the truth.

There is no such thing as a lie, just old truth and new truth.

They have been told many new truths which have become old truths and replace with new truths. They have never been lied to because God does not lie.

ONLY APOSTATES LIE - GET IT!

171

The vote is in: SCIENCE vs RELIGION......who won?

by Terry in

history has demonstrated:.

religion is following orders by implicitly trusting someone or something.. science asks questions.. religion purports to answer questions.. science seeks to disprove its own conclusions.. religion seeks to reinforce its own dogma.. science is error-correction toward adjusting for realities as they unfold.. religion internalizes against reality by mocking up a substitute.. science is the most recent development of the human mind.

technology proves science to be successful in advancing human progress.. religion disdains human progress and waits for the end.

trevor

Earlier today I posted this on the thread asking if we have to choose to choose between religion and science. I think I should have posted it here as they have all gone to church. So here goes:

There has been much debate on this subject lately and my interest in the subject has flushed me out of hiding.

It is true that religion has from the earliest times attempted to explain phenomena in our world. Many activities that were attributed to various gods are now known to have natural and explainable causes. As we have grown in knowledge the explanations provided by religion have been found wanting. Science seeks the same answers but uses logic and close examination as the tool of its trade.

I think the cross road of whether we are applying religion or science to a situation is this:

Are we seeking to understand what is happening so that we can be aware and then act on the knowledge we uncover to gain understanding? Or are we looking to some kind of invisible intelligence to step in and act on our behalf while we remain none the wiser than we were before?

James Thomas often talks of an ultimate reality that stands apart from religion and science and simply is all that is. It is the awareness that exists outside of both religion and science.

Religion goes further, it tells us that there is a personal invisible being who has emotions like ours. If implored, worshiped or appeased enough this benevolent power will intercede on our behalf. On the other hand science does not expect such an intervention.

It is because of this fundamental difference that religion stands in the way of the progress that science tries to make. Scientists are often accused of trying to play God when they are simply seeking much needed answers.

It comes down to this:

Are we children who should look to our heavenly Father to bail us out or are we adults who are fully responsible for the world we live in and its survival?

trevor

45

When "friends" let you down...

by Crumpet in

jw
friends

have you ever been in a position where you really needed your friends - ie a relationship break down, or some other event and expected your friends to rally and support you.

only to find that those friends are nowhere to be seen or heard and when you tentatively enquire how they are in the hope for some kind response you get - "oh well you'll get over it.

" or words to that effect and by email.. i have as you can guess a reason and recent experience of my own that i'll share later, but i wondered how do you handle that?

trevor

Crumpet

I apologize in advance if quoting this old adage kills your thread as is my speciality.

A friend in need is a pain indeed...

74

Science vs. Religion - Must We Choose Between Them?

by bavman in

i dare to say science and religion are two different animals.

they may try to explain similar things but in different ways.

i don't believe man will ever live without either religion or science nor would i want us too.

trevor

Moved to Terry's thread The vote is in SCIENCE v RELIGION

171

The vote is in: SCIENCE vs RELIGION......who won?

by Terry in

history has demonstrated:.

religion is following orders by implicitly trusting someone or something.. science asks questions.. religion purports to answer questions.. science seeks to disprove its own conclusions.. religion seeks to reinforce its own dogma.. science is error-correction toward adjusting for realities as they unfold.. religion internalizes against reality by mocking up a substitute.. science is the most recent development of the human mind.

technology proves science to be successful in advancing human progress.. religion disdains human progress and waits for the end.

trevor

This is a most interesting debate. Over the years I have moved from being religious to mystical to being practical and applying logic. This has done more to help me clear my mind of the debris of the past and move on, than any other endeavour.

Reading through this debate causes me to mention one of the things about religion that differs from science. At the core of most religion is the belief that we are at our deepest level beings of love who have lost our way. This is why the world has gone astray. If we could all uncover who we really are, then life would be perfect.

This is denial of the reality of the world we live in and how humans have always acted. The basic motivation of all living creatures is survival. Lions instinct is to kill. If captured as cubs they can be trained to be friendly to humans in return for food and attention. Children are born selfish and demanding. They have to be trained and negotiated with until they grow to see the benefits of give and take. If life teaches them to hit first and harder and take without giving, that is how they will act until they find that there are more rewarding ways to live that offer less risk. Terry illustrates how humans refrain from murder to avoid repercussions.

The fact that we are capable of love does not mean we are love. The idea that we are something other than how we act or appear denies reality. We as humans will act in whatever way we have to achieve our goals and protect our loved ones.

People from the most loving and kind families raise their children to believe that God will love them if they support or in some cases take part in, killing anyone who is of a different faith and reward them accordingly. Such religions present the death of people from other faiths as an act of love but belief of this kind is a distorted act of self survival. Disciples of such religions are being tricked in their millions.

Science examine reality, what actually is and outlines the consequences of cause and effect. It does not claim to be benevolent, good or unselfish. Instead it strives to see our world and ourselves as it really is, not as it should have been if we had shown more faith. It makes mistakes and is sometimes misused but it offers practical solutions to the challenges of everyday living. It teaches self-reliance and responsibility.

If the flat roof on the church leaks we can sit in the damp and pray for help, donations or divine intervention. We can ask Odin to stop making it rain on our church. Or we can get up a ladder, rip off the old felt and apply an improved scientifically developed weather proofing material. The answers are often in our own hands but we have to use our hands in a practical way. Sitting with them pressed together may provide an illusionary sense of comfort but the roof will still leak!

9

love your enemy

by dontknow in

greetings people,.

i've completed a lengthy conversation with my father about the bible and jws and said to him:.

jws place a lot of emphasis when studying and preaching with others on one main thing about what the bible is mainly about; that is the devil and those who practise his works and how to avoid him and them and for everlasting life on earth.. i asked my father, who is the biggest enemy of god and jesus?

trevor

Narkissos

As always a very deep and sensible reply. Where were the guys like you when they were writing the bible?

It is time for an updated Bible. You, Terry and James Thomas should get together. It would still be contradictory but a lot more interesting than the old one!

9

love your enemy

by dontknow in

greetings people,.

i've completed a lengthy conversation with my father about the bible and jws and said to him:.

jws place a lot of emphasis when studying and preaching with others on one main thing about what the bible is mainly about; that is the devil and those who practise his works and how to avoid him and them and for everlasting life on earth.. i asked my father, who is the biggest enemy of god and jesus?

trevor

'Love your enemy.'

Isn't this an oxymoron? If you love someone then enmity ceases and they cease to be your enemy. Therefore in a world of perfect love there would be no enemies. Yet the god of perfect love is on record as 'smiting his enemies.' The Bible is a badly written and contradictory collection of meaningless rants - it is not supposed to make sense.

45

When "friends" let you down...

by Crumpet in

jw
friends

have you ever been in a position where you really needed your friends - ie a relationship break down, or some other event and expected your friends to rally and support you.

only to find that those friends are nowhere to be seen or heard and when you tentatively enquire how they are in the hope for some kind response you get - "oh well you'll get over it.

" or words to that effect and by email.. i have as you can guess a reason and recent experience of my own that i'll share later, but i wondered how do you handle that?

trevor

Crumpet, we all have different needs and friends cannot fill them. Expectations general lead to disappointment.

The answer is to become self sufficient and rely on yourself to get you through the hard times. Your friends have their own worries and cares and although they like to share their problems they don’t want to be on the receiving end. They are afraid you will want from them what they are not able to give.

They will be far more available if they sense that you are not looking to them for answers or help. Surprise them by showing genuine concern for them. Doing this will help you get through this difficult time.

Trevor - Agony Aunt & fountain of dubious wisdom.