Posts by dabster

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

dabster

I kind of warmed a little to jgnat's comment, somehow, where she says, "I wouldn't agonize so much about demons and God's will. He knows your heart and as soon as it is not doing you any good, stop it. As for demons, Witnesses fear churches for the same thing. I see two groups mutually fearful of 'demons'...". Well yes, but - dunno.

Although there's truth in what she says, the WT organisation is all about deception. If the WT is not the truth, could the deceiver, the father of lies be behind it? Could one aspect of the deception be "don't go to churches - that's where the demons are"? It is precisely in churches, good ones anyway, where the truth is to be found.

I believe that what we read in 1 John 5:19 is right. The whole world does lie in the power of the evil one. The Watchtower is a spiritual counterfeit and of course under his power too. If it appears we're a threat to people in his thrall (good word, that, must use it more often) he's going to retaliate. No surprises there. Without getting all extreme and spooky now, we are in a spiritual fight or Paul wouldn't have written what he did about the weapons of our warfare. We can even come of second best from time to time, I have - but this can be dealt with as we or others pray. I'm not sure we should stop something if it is not doing us any good, necessarily. If we get demonic flak we must be doing something right.

Faithful Witness, all this is not to say that you should continue seeing the elderette and colleague. It might well be an idea to call the discussions off. Look to God for his leading in the matter. I'll be happy to pray too, if you like, that he would reveal unmistakeably to you what he has in mind.

12

JWs and the idea of a cult

by dabster in

as i've been chatting with a jw neighbour he has said, "heck, some people think we are a cult!

" and scoffs at very idea.

how ludicrous (he thinks)!

dabster

As I've been chatting with a JW neighbour he has said, "Heck, some people think WE are a cult!" and scoffs at very idea. How ludicrous (he thinks)! This wouldn't be uncommon - what exactly do JWs think a cult is? Do any of you know?

85

My Elderette is returning today to CONDUCT another conversation...

by Faithful Witness in

she has had 42 years of training and indoctrination.

i'm feeling sort of nervous, but also looking forward to it.

this will be our second scheduled session together, and we never did agree on a topic.. i'm assuming she will come with an agenda and another prepared presentation.

dabster

Hi Faithful Witness,

I suppose I might be one of the well-meaning people cultBgone refers to who have suggested a way in which to handle Miss K and Miss W. He is well-intentioned. But his advice to you,

Please don't be such a people-pleaser that you continually allow others to direct your life!

would be ignored if you were to follow it. The fact is that people are leaving the Watchtower organisation. It's not at all uncommon. I'm not sure the Great Commission excludes any group. I'm seeing results as I share with a JW neighbour. On one occasion, when we were reading Romans 10 to see from the context that the Lord mentioned in v.13 was Jesus rather than Jehovah, he leapt up from his seat at the table, said he'd been hoodwinked and that if he was wrong at this point he would be further and further from the truth the longer he took the route he was on. I'd never seen anything like it and spent some time settling him down. This was not my doing; it was 100% the work of the Holy Spirit, who directed me to the passage in the first place. Like Miss K, this neighbour has also been in the organisation for 42 years - all his life - but this and other things I'm sharing with him, frequently from Wilbur Lingle's response to the Bible Teach book, are chipping away at the hold the Watchtower has on him and the confidence he has in it. He has composed himself since the "hoodwinked" realisation and seems to have repressed that memory but I'm in it for the long haul. I prayed for the opportunity to share the gospel with him and my prayer was answered with his initiating things. Since the Lord has orchestrated this, I'm inclined that good will come from it.

I mention this not to hijack the thread but to encourage you to stick with it if you feel the Lord wants you to. If not, call the thing off. If you don't sow seeds of doubt in their minds there may be no one else who does. But make it a matter of prayer. I'd personally love to keep reading and see you make some headway with her/them. If you do continue your "studies" though (sorry, I have to say this again) Lingle's book simply can't be beat.

15

If the earth is going to burn up as Born Agains teach would that make Jesus a "false prophet"?

by booker-t in

as i have mentioned here for many years there are some things i totally disagree with the wt society on but one thing i do believe they have right is that the earth is going to last forever.

one thing that has always amazed me with born agains that teach the earth is going to burn up is the scripture where jesus says "the meek will inherit the earth".

this is clear and plain and why would jesus outright "lie" about the earth if he knew it was going to burn up?

dabster

Hi Jan and Laika - and booker-t,

Yes, it is a great book. Whatever Wright believes about a bodily resurrection, he and other Evangelicals, eg. Ben Witherington, Eugene Peterson, Wayne Grudem and others (Sam Storms, Leon Morris) write about a new earth existing along with the new heavens. And they're all born again. Pity booker-t doesn't really discuss.

15

If the earth is going to burn up as Born Agains teach would that make Jesus a "false prophet"?

by booker-t in

as i have mentioned here for many years there are some things i totally disagree with the wt society on but one thing i do believe they have right is that the earth is going to last forever.

one thing that has always amazed me with born agains that teach the earth is going to burn up is the scripture where jesus says "the meek will inherit the earth".

this is clear and plain and why would jesus outright "lie" about the earth if he knew it was going to burn up?

dabster

Nonsense, booker-t. Evangelical Christians believe in a new heavens and a new earth, in fact that the new Jerusalem will come down out of heaven, just as Revelation 21 describes. Read for example Surprised by Hope by N.T. Wright if you're unconvinced. I think you may have read something by someone and then rewrote the teaching in your own head, attributing it to all other Christians.

2

The Bible Teach book discussion on YouTube

by Listener in

over time a number of posters have asked for advice when studying what does the bible really teach?

book with jws.

i came across a set of youtube video's of a guy discussing this book chapter by chapter with the jws.

dabster

This is certainly interesting and, from the (admittedly) little I heard, the person who posted the recording on YouTube makes valid points (other than the one saying that the Alpha Course does not present the trinitarian position - it does; the Elim church conducting the course however seems not to have) but I believe he takes the wrong approach. He argues doctrine. It is far, far more effective to use the Bible Teach book to chip away at the confidence the JW has in the Watchtower organisation. This is done superbly well by Wilbur Lingle in his treatment of the book, which presents for the Christian a step-by-step guide to be used in the book study situation. Faithful Witness, I didn't see this post until after I messaged you - I answer it so that others have the opportunity of taking Wilbur Lingle's approach. I am using it with a JW neighbour I am discussing things with to great effect. If I were you I would gladly do the book study with your elderette - but only with Lingle's guide well-prepared a chapter at a time.

If anyone is interested I can send either the file or Wilbur Lingle's contact details.

4

JWs and my church affiliation

by dabster in

this topic would come under "practices", i suppose.

it seems like a practice to me.

it is something the jws i have met - almost all without exception - have wanted to know.

dabster

Oh, thanks guys. Your answers are helpful. When I referred to "Christendom" in my post I was speaking as a JW would. In the meantime I have answered the guy, saying "I am, first and foremost, a Christian. All Christians are Christians first and whatever flavour of Christianity they subscribe to second. The church I attend is a Baptist one and is organised in the way the Baptists, well, organise their denomination."

4

JWs and my church affiliation

by dabster in

this topic would come under "practices", i suppose.

it seems like a practice to me.

it is something the jws i have met - almost all without exception - have wanted to know.

dabster

This topic would come under "Practices", I suppose. It seems like a practice to me. It is something the JWs I have met - almost all without exception - have wanted to know. Just now a Witness I know has asked in an email, before he answers a few thoughts I ran by him, what my denomination is. What is that about? Surely my church, whatever it is, would be part of Christendom and would be tarred with the same brush as all the others, right? I find this insistence in knowing my particular flavour of Christianity strange, to say the least. Or are some denominations more loathsome than others?

In case any of you are wondering, it's Baptist.

24

The 144,000

by dabster in

i was reading in revelation 7 yesterday, where the 12 tribes of the sons of israel are named and where we learn that 12,000 from each tribe are sealed.

how do the jws explain that the 144,000 are identified as israel - and identified so specifically that the 12 tribes are named?

be gentle with me when answering.

dabster

Thanks, everybody. And thank you, Yan and Pterist, for your welcome! Just for the record, of course, I see the number 144,000 as symbolic. It was the inconsistency in the JW position I was wondering about and you answered it nicely!

24

The 144,000

by dabster in

i was reading in revelation 7 yesterday, where the 12 tribes of the sons of israel are named and where we learn that 12,000 from each tribe are sealed.

how do the jws explain that the 144,000 are identified as israel - and identified so specifically that the 12 tribes are named?

be gentle with me when answering.

dabster

I was reading in Revelation 7 yesterday, where the 12 tribes of the sons of Israel are named and where we learn that 12,000 from each tribe are sealed. How do the JWs explain that the 144,000 are identified as Israel - and identified so specifically that the 12 tribes are named? Be gentle with me when answering. This is my very first post.