Max,
Crystalline eyes at that! I agree - this will be a large part of their UNdoing. Have ideas. Need to tawk, maybe this weekend? Email.
T, possibly extant but certainly extinct
ps: must've been a good shindig...
Trilobite
JoinedPosts by Trilobite
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589
MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...
by hawkaw inas of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.
and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .
after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk
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43
UN vs WT -It doesn't matter
by Dan B indoes anybody honestly think that all this exposure about the wtb&ts and the un really going to matter much in the jw community?
sure, it matters to us, since we already know the truth about the wt.
but it won't even make a dent in the jw population.
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Trilobite
Dan,
I don't think we disagree; the problem, to me, is that many feel that the WTS can exist in a vacuum and that "Dubs must be enlightened" for change to occur. History shows that all religions change when external circumstances change. The WTS, not us, will educate the dubs about the new ways. They are aleady doing that and would continue to do so even without us. They don't want to, and now cannot, go back to the lunacy of the Mad Hatter Franz. But they don't know how to get out of it either. Our task is to make things hotter for them if they don't alter than if they do.
What we are doing is exploiting the dichotomy that their own actions have created, so as to accelerate change. Creating fear in the leadership so that they do the necessary. Getting the odd Dub out, esp. our own relatives is important, but is not the overall goal. Why else would we point to their stupidly self-contradictory blood policy? After all, it is far better than it used to be. We do it because the contradiction can be exploited to make change go even faster; once the toothpaste is out of the tube it cannot be put back. We do it to save lives. If they had not altered one iota on blood from 1959 then what would our argument amount to? It would amount to no more than the interpretation of scripture, which could safely be ignored. But self-contradictions from God's spokesman are far more deadly weapons to use. Had they stayed away from the Un they would be in the clear, but they needed the UN and no will need it even more so.
After all, the simplest and most effective thing the leadership could have done would have been to hold the line on blood %100, make no changes to any doctrine and simply hold the fort. They made the changes, not us, they affiliated with the UN, not us. They are the agents of change, not us. Why did they do it? Who cares? We exploit their failure of nerve. The leadership is in a hole and we must continue to torment them because that will make things easier for the rank and file. They cannot go back.
They may react with a spasm of heavy-handedness; that could well be their undoing.
T.
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43
UN vs WT -It doesn't matter
by Dan B indoes anybody honestly think that all this exposure about the wtb&ts and the un really going to matter much in the jw community?
sure, it matters to us, since we already know the truth about the wt.
but it won't even make a dent in the jw population.
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Trilobite
The only problem with the analysis is that it is defined in retrospect. Those who were doctrinal have left while those who are Social stay. For many the doctrine is the social too. Indeed, many who remain despair of the doctrinal state of affairs and put it down to "the apostasy of the last days." That too is doctrinal.
It is true that the categories are becoming more and more disentangled; but once doctrine is finally divorced from social then the WTS loses power. The WTS's source of power is doctrinal; it is merely the implementation that is social.
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43
UN vs WT -It doesn't matter
by Dan B indoes anybody honestly think that all this exposure about the wtb&ts and the un really going to matter much in the jw community?
sure, it matters to us, since we already know the truth about the wt.
but it won't even make a dent in the jw population.
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Trilobite
Dan,
I agree the religion won't vanish. But the changes will transform it from the virulent organization that it is today to an essentially mainstream religion, and fairly quickly in my view. Then it's no longer an issue. That's what I want, not for it to come crashing down. Abolition of the religion by its own proclamation would just put 6m unhappy dubs on the streets - they'd just be prey for the next cult.
I understand your point Dan, and sort of agree with you. But I think the outlook is brighter than it looks.
T.
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Do The Math!
by silentlambs ini just received the following email a few minutes ago, anyone care to suggest a response?.
do your math......my children are safer within the jehovah's witnesses than in any other organization......... .
if you compare the cases of child molestation and other acts with the stories of happiness and success ....the success stories will overwhelm all other negative stories........ .
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Trilobite
Bill,
Tell them to do the math. If they reduced the number of witnesses from 2 to zero in order to institute an inquiry, then how much safer would their kids be.
T.
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43
UN vs WT -It doesn't matter
by Dan B indoes anybody honestly think that all this exposure about the wtb&ts and the un really going to matter much in the jw community?
sure, it matters to us, since we already know the truth about the wt.
but it won't even make a dent in the jw population.
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Trilobite
dungbeetle,
Good points; however, the WTS no longer has a coherent message. Older dubs actually believed all that bird food stuff. It seems unlikely to the new generation esp. without the types of reinforcement the WTS used to provide, e.g., threats against college etc. Martyrs and people who sacrifice much strengthen a religion. Basically the dubs are getting soft and the next generation of Dubs will either quit or just blow it off, by and large. I give it 5 years tops before that starts to happen in a major way. By then the GB will be either buried or buryable.
We tend to overestimate this organization. As a religion it hasn't done that well and it will continue to decline and possibly fragment along party lines.
T.
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43
UN vs WT -It doesn't matter
by Dan B indoes anybody honestly think that all this exposure about the wtb&ts and the un really going to matter much in the jw community?
sure, it matters to us, since we already know the truth about the wt.
but it won't even make a dent in the jw population.
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Trilobite
Dan,
There've been changes on blood, alternative service, voting, view of evolution, this generation, signs of the times, organ transplants, etc. The deal with the UN was actually a progressive step for the organization and I'm sorry they've quit. They will regret it. The trouble in all this is that the rank and file are intentionally kept in the dark. The WTS's M.O. is to effect change so slowly that the older generation has long gone before the changes was apparent.
True, many JW kids have always left; but many still believed it or could not refute it, or left under a cloud. Now they can present evidence in a highly articulate fashion. That effectively closes off the possibility of many returning becaus ethey have seen though it. Given the diminishment in the number of converts this wil be significant.
The WTS succeeded because it could control the flow of information to JWs. Now it cannot. Simple as that.
Change won't occur overnight, nor will it depend on a single issue; but it will arrive and faster than is expected. That's how ossified regimes finally collapse. Who would have though the Soviet Union would have gone as fast as it did?
Need to keep the pressure up. That's all.
T.
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43
UN vs WT -It doesn't matter
by Dan B indoes anybody honestly think that all this exposure about the wtb&ts and the un really going to matter much in the jw community?
sure, it matters to us, since we already know the truth about the wt.
but it won't even make a dent in the jw population.
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Trilobite
Dan,
I disagree. The WTS has flourished because of the absence of access to information. More and more young Dubs are going to college and accessing the internet. Tremendous changes have already occurred. This WT/UN thing will set them back because it will make it harder for the WTS to deal with government agencies, esp. if the publicity increases.
Imagine a young JW who is being criticized by the elders, say, for worldly associations; he or she gets royally pissed off and starts doing a bit of research on the WTS to give him or her ammo. That is happening all the time. Friends of JWs are coming to forums like this.
In the past the average JW had more info. at their finger tips than the average person with a similar level of education. That is no longer the case. Dubdom thrived on the largely uneducated masses of the industrial revolution era. In the information era they are doomed.
Change will not come solely from within, that's for sure; but without the ability to shield JWs from information and facts they are fighting what is ultimately a losing battle. Unless they grasp the nettle now.
T.
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589
MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...
by hawkaw inas of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.
and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .
after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk
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Trilobite
bx,
I agree. I just sent an email to the UN DPI asking them to confirm the substance of The Guardian articles, and also one to the un-foundation newsservice: http://www.unfoundation.com/unwire/ pointing out those articles and asking for comment.
Bearing in mind the widow who keeps knocking, if these folks get enough emails they may decide to issue a press release. They really should issue some formal statement given the publicity that has already happened. They may have a behind the scenes deal with the WTS but given how the WTS treated them, why should they care if it means them getting back to day to day business and the nice office parties they seem to have.
The Mayor of Stratton and the Supreme Court Case are receiving unsually high press coverage, so that might be another angle.
T.
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589
MAJOR UN/WTS NEWS- UN LETTER & 1992 Press R...
by hawkaw inas of 6:02 pm last night i received a facsimile from paul hoeffel at the un on the wts.. he gave me 3 of the 4 things i requested in two paragraphs.. i have sent a scanned version to steve bates and someone else.. i sent it to kent and randy.
and kent and randy have posted the official united nations letter on their web sites.. here is the letter - put your cursor on the image and then right click on your mouse and hit "save image" to your computer.. .
after you look at kent's web site and you people still think this it is a fake letter, phone paul hoeffel yourself at (212) 963-8070.. hawk
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Trilobite
hawk,
Here are the coordinates of the Mayor of Stratton, Ohio (source of the Supreme Court case and the Dubs) who is also an officer with the Ohio Democrats (I believe). He might appreciate receiving a copy of yr press release and links to the Guardian articles.
John Abdalla
105 1st Steet
PO Box 33
Stratton, OH 43961
Phone: 740/537-3091T.