When I was "in" I used that Cedar Point stuff to comfort myself. If the bowls of angelic anger then were tracts, resolutions, and conventions that few besides Witnesses noticed, maybe the Great Trib and Armageddon would be likewise on the scale of fear-inspiring.
truman
JoinedPosts by truman
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Did you ever REALLY believe anything special happened at Cedar Point Ohio in 1922?
by Sapphy inbut the understanding is affirmed in the revelation climax book, albeit with less detail.
the events are as follows (& i'm keeping the quotes really short) :.
1st angel - "it all began during the bible students cedar point convention in september 1922. there gods people enthusiastically adopted a resolution entitled "a challenge.
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Most people who are not JW's live with out moral restrain! All who have left the "Truth" regret it. June 15th WT
by life is to short inin the june 15th wt it says on page 9 i will just write it out as it is to hard and unbelievable to preface this.
so here it is.. "many who today are members of the christian congregation can tell you that before learning of and adopting jehovah's righteous standards, they lived without moral restrain.
yet, they were unsatisfied and unhappy.
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truman
Is this quotation from one of the JW only issues of the Watchtower? Does anyone have a scan of that or a pdf of the issue? For my grad class on rhetoric, I am doing a paper about the ways cults use rhetoric to recruit and maintain members (focusing on JWs). This sounds like a passage that would be a very apt example. (Not so) unfortunately, I no longer have access to the restricted WT.
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Did you feel alone amongst the great crowd of JW's?
by highdose inlike there you were at an assembly maybe, everyone seems to be swarming with freinds, and you are the one left out unwanted and made to feel like you don't belong there?.
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truman
I never felt like I belonged among the JWs. I felt alienated and outside all the while I was in. I thought it was me. In a way it was.
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Has any GB member ever applied for USA citizenship?
by maryacclaim inthis subject may have already been hashed out on here in the past so let me know if so.. i was just curious though, because it would be an excellent point when discussing malawai and such.. here's the oath of citizenship:.
i hereby declare, on oath, that i absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which i have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that i will support and defend the constitution and laws of the united states of america against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that i will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that i will bear arms on behalf of the united states when required by the law; that i will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the united states when required by the law; that i will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that i take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me god.. just wondering.. .
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truman
My JW child's JW spouse, who was born a citizen of an Eastern bloc nation, recently became a U.S. citizen.
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Jehovah's Witnesses and Amway
by paul from cleveland inmaybe you're all familiar with this subject already but i just came across it tonight.
it's an article about whether or not amway is a cult.
the similarities between jehovah's witnesses and amway are incredible.. http://www.cocs.com/jhoagland/amcult.html.
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truman
I have posted this link and its contents on the board here before, but it is worth plenty of exposure. I was never in Amway, but seeing this document was integral to my understanding of how the Watchtower society uses the very same rhetorical strategies as Amway to control JWs. One only has to substitute the terminology.
THE THINGS THEY WILL SAY:
http://www.angelfire.com/or/amwaydreamers/index2.html
1. You will be told that for a mere $150.00 investment, you can own a million dollar business. ( No one will mention opens, rallies, seminars, tapes, books, functions, shipping costs, handling charges, additional phone bills, buying business supplies, paying higher prices for household items, etc..)
2. You will be told that people who have nothing good to say about Amway are just trying to steal your dream. That they don't want to see anyone else succeed. Or, if they have already had the Amway Experience, that it was their old upline, or that they belonged to the "Old Amway", that things are different now. What they experienced doesn't apply to you or your upline or even to the "New Improved Amway".
3. You will be told that you must associate with "winners" to succeed. ( This will translate to mean not associating with family and friends who aren't in the ORGANIZATION.)
4. You will be told that your children can walk the beaches with you when you succeed, but for now, you will need a lengthy list of sitters so you can have no excuse to miss a meeting, open, function, seminar, rally, product pick-up, etc...(Let someone else kiss the boo-boos and wipe their noses.)
5. You will be told not to subject yourself to "negative influences", such as newspapers, television, radio, or people who aren't in Amway, unless they're prospects. There are also "negative" products to avoid. This makes you more open to the "positive" ideas of the organization and your upline. ( I think this is a standard rule in most cults.)
6. You will be told that it's normal for couples to have "Amriffs". If your spouse is starting to act negative toward the business, set them straight, or ignore them.
7. You will be told that the more you suffer, the bigger your business will be. The tapes say so over and over and over again, and you will be reminded of this at every function, meeting, rally and seminar, over Amvox, etc.. ( Prepare yourself, you will definately suffer, one way or another! )
8. You will be told that the farther you drive to a meeting, the more successful you will be. The tapes will emphasize this over and over again. So what if you drive two hours one way to a house plan on a worknight, just to find out there are no prospects? You'll just do a nuts and bolts instead. Your business is going to be huge, just because you showed up! (Forget about the time away from your children and loss of sleep, because you are a winner, a leader, and an inspiration to all those downline beneath you! )
9. You will be told that no matter how much money and time you have invested into books, tapes, opens, rallies, seminars, functions, opens and products, you cannot quit now because you haven't been in long enough to profit from it! No matter how long you have been at it!
10. You will be told that upline does not profit from the sales of tools. They have created the tapes, books, and put on all the functions out of the kindness in their hearts and they are only selling them to you at their cost!
11. You will be told that doing the business only takes 10 - 15 hours per week. (Figure in showing the plan 3 -5 times per week, and add in driving time, product pick-up, time on the phone to track down orders, calling in orders, prospecting, and add in an open, seminar and rally that are all done from Friday through Saturday about once a month, or more. Plus, you still have to make time for that J.O.B. , and maybe schedule in your children every so often.)
12. You will be told that unless you are on standing order, your business will not be taken seriously, therefore, not warrant your upline's help. (They don't care if you can afford it or not. They would prefer you not buy products rather than skip standing order. Even though Amway literature says the support materials must be offered as optional.)
13. You will be told to keep secrets about upline from your downline. (Such as their real financial situations. Leaders can't have followers knowing any negatives about them. Who follows someone who is worse off than themselves?)
14. You will be told to attend all functions, no matter what else is going on in your life. Nothing matters more than a function! Not even a death in the family! (The function will make you feel better anyway!)
15. You will be told to never question anything your upline tells you. Even if the Amway literature says something different! (Still convinced this is a normal business?)
16. You will be told again to never question anything your upline tells you, even if your common sense tells you what they're saying just can't possibly be right. The tapes will reaffirm this. They would have never succeeded if they hadn't followed upline and done exactly as they said. (Follow the leader, even if you're not sure what they're leading you into.)
17. You will be told not to get detailitis. This questioning of authority could ruin your business! Even if you suspect you could be following upline that aren't exactly running their business within the confines of the law! ( Hush now, the FTC says we're not a pyramid! We have a TEN CUSTOMER A MONTH RULE!) (The rule has changed as of 1/97. Now you're SUPPOSED to have at least 10 separate retail customers or, 50 p.v. in retail sales to any number of customers.)
18. You will be told to follow people who are where you want to be. (That's great if your following successful people who are telling the truth about how they got to where they are. And telling the truth about just HOW successful they are!)
19. You will be told that everyone in your upline is very successful. ( Even if they have liens against their homes, or had to go back to work to support their business after going direct. Of course, downline doesn't know these things! These are negatives for upline to handle!)
20. You will be told that you don't need to worry about retail selling to ten different customers each month until you hit direct. Even then, your dog can buy his own dog food. Don't worry about it! What was that we were told before? ( Oh Yeah! The FTC says this isn't a pryamid! I would imagine the new retail sales rule won't be a problem either).
21. You will be told that everything to do with the business is TAX DEDUCTIBLE! Even dog food, since you know, the dog guards the house, where you have Amway meetings, and light bulbs, since they light the house where you have Amway meetings, the coffee you drink, because you use coffee at Amway meetings, etc... (Getting the picture? I hope you don't get audited! They make it sound like anything that is tax deductible is free! I guess it makes it easier to keep shelling out the dough, if they give the hope that it will all be returned at the end of the year! By the way, in case you haven't figured this one out yet, you only get back a portion of the money you spent on the business. The IRS is not in the business of giving you money! To hear upline tell it, this business, if nothing else, is a great tax shelter. Although you will never hear those exact words come out of their mouths!)
22. You will be told that credit cards are bad. Bad for you, bad for America. ( Try telling upline that you can't afford a function. Betcha they say "CHARGE IT"! You know, they do encourage you to have at least one credit card for emergencies!)
23. You will be told that if you don't do the business, you are risking your family's future. ( Don't you love your family and want the best for them?)
24. You will be told that there is only a 5% divorce rate with couples in the business. (No one says where this figure comes from. Does anyone know? How many couples divorce as a result of the business and just don't renew their distributorship?)
25. You will be told by many couples in the business that the business "saved" their marriages.
26. You will be told, if a woman, to blindly follow your husband, no matter what he does, so long as it benefits the business. Even if you believe it to be harmful to the family as a whole. (Does this fall into the "Saving the marraige" catagory?)
27. You will be told, if a man, to keep your wife in tow. Don't let her wear the pants in the family! If she doesn't like what the business is doing to the family, ignore her! Do what you want anyway, she'll come around eventually! The tapes speak of these Amriffs often, and they are considered completely normal! If you make it to Diamond, you should have had many of these along the way!
28. You will be told, if a woman, to smile at your husband and appear to be hanging on every word at his presentation of THE PLAN, and to act like you are hearing it for the first time, every time.(And remember, keep smiling, even if it hurts, keep smiling!)
29. You will be told men, wear a suit. Preferably one from the catalog. (That way, all of the men will eventually own the same suits and eventually all look exactly alike, down to their socks.)
30. You will be told, if a woman, to wear a dress. Again, preferably out of the catalog. (The business realizes how much women love to be wearing the same dress as ten other women in the same room! )
31. You will be told to stick pictures of new cars and dream homes on your refrigerator. This way you will be reminded of just why you are spending all your money on tapes, opens, functions, rallies, seminars, overpriced products, childcare, etc...(I guess to some people this makes more sense than saving money in the bank. Giving your money to upline makes much more sense. In some cases, they should have pictures of food and balance paid notices from the utility companys on the refrigerator!)
32. You will be told that it's none of your business how many people your upline has personally sponsored, or how much P.V. they are putting through their business each month. Nor is it your downline's business to know how much business you are actually doing. It's your job to make sure they think you are doing a huge volume, and your upline's job is to make sure they believe it by spouting at all gatherings that you are a leader in your area and will be crossing stage any minute! (Even if you've only done 100 P.V. that month!)
33. You will be told not to tell prospects that they are going to an Amway meeting unless they really really really push the subject. Then, if they won't shut up about it, you may say, "Why yes, it is! What do you know about Amway? Do you know we distribute thousands of products? I must tell you that we're not really Amway, we're with WORLD WIDE DREAMBUILDERS, we just distribute Amway products, but are really our own organization! Why don't you let us show you the plan and you'll be surprised how much things have changed!" If the prospect tells you that they're not interested in doing retail selling, you may tell them, "Why, we don't sell door to door anymore, don't worry about that! Just come see the PLAN, and it will explain everything!" (Remember, the FTC says that this is not a pyramid! You must keep reminding everyone!)
34. You will be told that the husband should be doing all the finances, including paying the bills. (This makes perfect sense, since the brainwashing of the men centers on their egos. The wife will probably notice that there's less money for food because the man decided he needed to follow upline's advice and have an extra kit, tape, or whatever, but how can he say no, when to do such a thing would tell his upline that he's not as serious about taking care of his family's future as he should be? Not to mention that if he told his upline that he couldn't afford it, it would make him feel like a failure. As an already successful upline yourself, you can't admit those kinds of things! And the real beauty of it is, that if the wife complains, she is being negative and not supporting her husband the way she should. Thus, it would be all her fault if they got into an "AMRIFF", and he would have to start considering her a "NEGATIVE", and have to avoid her! Isn't it beautiful?)
35. You will be told that all you have to do is listen to tapes and read books, attend every single meeting, major function, open, rally, seminar, show the plan ,etc...and you will succeed. Guaranteed! Of course, there is no time line, just at some distant future, it could be twenty years, it could be next month, just don't quit! ( Oh yeah, I forgot, there is a 2-4 year plan, but most of the letters I've seen from current distributors to ex-distributors say even 4 years just isn't enough time!I have heard it said that so long as you just stay in the business, you are a success! Profits don't count in this case.)
36. You will be told to be your own best customer. (Don't bother knocking on your neighbor's door, the products are too expensive for them. Just who's selling to whom here? In fact, more than likely, the only time you will hear about retail selling at all will be when upline tells you to move a water treatment system or some make-up so that your next function will be more affordable. Funny how no one mentions actually making money for yourself from retail!)
37. You will be told to get your downline on standing order as soon a possible. It is imperative that you do this! Your success will be measured by how many downline you have on standing order and Amvox. Standing Order is the most important though. You must talk them into this whether you know they can afford it or not! ( You must not have a conscience about this! Your business will be doomed if you do!)
38. You will be told to only listen to what your upline tells you, because they are the only ones with a "vested interest" in you. (Your family and friends don't? Doesn't a history of love and support in all other aspects of your life count? Does it make sense to toss away deep friendships and family because of what a person that you may not even know very well says? Do these new friends show any interest in knowing you beyond the business? Would you be friends with these people if you weren't in their line of sponsorship? Would you have anything in common? Do you really believe that they love you more, and care more about your well being than your family and friends? And just how much does the upline have "vested" in you? Think about it.)
39. You will be told to sponsor, sponsor, sponsor, and be reminded daily that personal use is essential to your business, but you will rarely if ever hear, sell, sell, sell! ( Remember! THIS IS NOT A PYRAMID! The FTC says so!)
40. You will be told that people who refuse to even look at the plan or decide not to be involved with the business, or quit the business are losers. (I guess that means if you quit, your line of sponsorship won't be allowed to associate with you anymore.)
41. You will be told that upline are your friends, and that you should counsel with them when you make any decisions that might possibly affect "your" business. Including, but not limited to, job changes, marital problems, family problems, financial decisions, whether you want to buy a car, etc....(Your leaders know what's best.)
42. You will be told that if this is a cult, at least it's a success cult. And that if it was a cult, everyone in the business would be a diamond. (Oh, Really now! Why then, aren't all those moonies as rich as their leader?)
43. You will be told that when you attend a function out of town, you shouldn't go sight seeing. This takes your attention away from the real reason you are there. (Who's paying for this trip anyway?)
44. You will be told that JOB is a four letter word and that the initials stand for "Just over broke". (Don't quit, you need it to pay for the business!)
45. You will be told that your JOB is a prison and they will help you to escape. (Yeah, they'll encourage you to miss work to attend meetings and functions. Forget about that stupid promotion! You're going to be free any minute!)
46. You will be told that people fail at the business, the business does not fail people. (You will never hear of lines of sponsorship that collapse or people not being able to afford the business after considerable financial losses.)Does any of this sound familiar? While you are surrounded with all you new Amway "Friends", eating Amway food, using only Amway products in your home, it is hard to see the abnormality of it all. If your upline has done their job correctly, you no longer see friends or family who aren't in the business. Your only socializing is done at WWDB meetings, major functions, seminars, rallies, opens and product pick-up or over Amvox. You will be strapped financially, trying to pay for overpriced products,opens, functions, rallies, seminars, tapes, books, business supplies, Amvox, etc..., and they will tell you again and again, that this is normal. But don't ever talk negatives with crossline or downline! make everyone think you are successful already! Tell lies, live a lie!
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Life On Hold: The CO Visit Week
by sacolton indid anyone have to cancel a vacation trip because it was on co visit week?
i still don't get why the co visit was as if god himself was in town.
is it kinda like if the pope were to visit with catholics?.
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truman
I have bad CO stories and good CO stories. This one is about a reasonably understanding CO. Long in advance of the CO's, visit another 'sister' and I had purchased expensive, non-refundable tickets to see William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy live (they were doing a series of shows in which they reminisced about their Star Trek experiences). The event was on a Saturday night. Not a usual JW meeting day. For some particular reason that I have forgotten, the cong. scheduled the CO's mid-week talk on that Saturday evening. She and I spoke to the CO about the conflict, and he said to go to the event. He must have been a Star Trek fan! He told us it would be OK to attend his talk at a nearby congregation as a substitute. We went to the Star Trek event, but we never did go to the make-up CO talk. Anyway, it was kinda nice to see a CO who was trying to be a good sport about our conflict of events.
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JWs and the Arts: The Muse Executed at Armageddon?
by truman inthe recent thread about some jw's reaction to the movie avatar made me flash back to some of my own misgivings when i was a jw about the wts's relationship to the arts.. .
jws are always ready to denounce any work of the human imagination that hints at ideas outside their narrow dogma.
movies whose titles have hindu etymology and which feature alien blue pagans are only the most recent.
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truman
The recent thread about some JW's reaction to the movie Avatar made me flash back to some of my own misgivings when I was a JW about the WTS's relationship to the arts.
JWs are always ready to denounce any work of the human imagination that hints at ideas outside their narrow dogma. Movies whose titles have Hindu etymology and which feature alien blue pagans are only the most recent. The JW condemnation of the arts covers movies, TV, literature (they hate the Harry Potter books), video games, music (not just 'death metal' but also some classical music), paintings, and even the plastic arts. Anything that examines or represents what they consider pagan, 'false' Christian, or worldly notions or beliefs.
As a JW, I sometimes wondered what would become of the humanities and the arts in the New System TM , once the 'world' was no longer there to produce works of true artistic fire. Would the artistic Muse die at Armageddon? After all, even that ancient metaphor refers to the activities of 'false' gods. Would all art take on the cartoonish emptiness of Watchtower and Awake illustrations? Would everything have a sort of slick sterility characteristic of most state-sanctioned Soviet art (which allowed only party-line expression)?
Would we even be able to see any art of the past, or would the great works of human history become prohibited? Could no one read Shakespeare anymore because his plays are full of bawdy humor and raucous behavior? What would Shakespeare be allowed write in the New System, since one would presume him to be resurrected? Watchtower doggerel of the type that makes the round of JW email these days?
These possibilities made me very sad as a JW-to think that humanity would lose its connection to great art, much of which is born out of the desire to find insight into the paradox and pain of existence, or to transcend it. If there were no more tears and no more pain, would there be no more art? Perhaps that loss could be tolerated if perfection were really available, but my fear was that the loss of art would be real, while the gain of perfection would be as about as genuine as the JW's present 'spiritual paradise'.
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Raising Chickens!
by jgnat ini had another great idea the other day; raise chickens!
in this rapidly changing recessionary world, i cast my mind back to stories of the depression.
farmers fared better than urban dwellers.
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truman
I have a backyard flock of seven hens. My fridge is full of eggs, really great-tasting eggs.
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The Truman Show
by slimboyfat ini know this has been discussed before, and it's the inspiration for mickey mouse's avatar.... i watched the truman show last night, and the parallels with life as a jw struck me.
truman thinks his world is real, but it's an illusion, part of an elaborate hoax.
the clues are all around him that things are not quite right: his distant wife; running into his dead father in the street; the strange messages he picks up on his car radio talking about him and watching his movements.
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truman
As you can see from my screen name, The Truman Show is a very meaningful piece of art for me. I certainly understand your point about those who see clearly the WTS's false reality but keep assenting to the illusion being seen as contributing to its perpetuation. I hesitate though to be too harsh because each person has to deal with a unique situation and the heroic renunciation may not be what they are able to carry out.
One thing I do see about the situation with Truman in the movie: There everyone except Truman was 'in' on the illusion. Only Truman was a victim of the manipulation. Only he was subject to the implanted fears and the deliberate psychological manipulation, the lies. Such is not the case with the JWs. In Watchtower world, the so-called apostate, closeted or open, is the one who has broken the illusion, while those around him or her are still spellbound.
For the one whose eyes are opened to the false reality they have lived in, there is a powerful parallel between The Truman Show and waking up from the WT dream. It is a journey of self-discovery and self-actualization. That is what struck me so deeply when I viewed the movie. Truman's desire to grow overcomes the power of the dream, one far more pleasantly constructed than the one that JWs live in. For me, leaving the WTS was a matter of 'grow or die'.
As for the other residents of Truman's artificial world, his exit meant little more for them than the need to find a new job. This is where the big difference comes in. For those left behind in the Kingdom Hall, the investment is much deeper. Much more than a job is at stake. Whole ego structures and families' lives are entangled with WT thinking.
My observation is that it is the rare case in which mental captives can be freed by others pointing out their chains. If someone stood up at a JW convention and shouted out that the whole thing is a lie, even if twenty or thirty people did it, what would happen? I think some 'apostates' have tried in the past. The JWs have strategies in place to neutralize such actions, both on a physical level (burly 'brothers' who usher the shouter out of the building) and on a psychological one. Mostly the reaction to such declarations seems to be defensiveness and clinging tighter to the belief system, congratulating themselves on escaping Satan's treachery.
In the film, Truman had to gather the inner strength to ask the forbidden questions, to transcend his fears, to confront the unknown outside the swaddling world he lived in. I am not saying that 'awakened' JWs cannot help captive ones to escape; they can, and many have. But I do think there must be something inside a person demanding freedom before it can be effectively embraced. That desire is a seed in all humans, but the growth rate varies.
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Just don't know what to do.
by Weeping ini disagree on some doctrine with the organisation.
yet, i also know these are the kindest,most loving people on earth.
such people must be guided by the holy spirit.
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truman
Weeping:
You say that you were out 'in the world' during your 20s and returned in 1977. That would seem to put you at about the same age as me, the mid-fifties. This is a time of life when people seem to reach a crossroads of sorts. Some decide to hunker down and live the rest of their lives in the same quiet desperation they have been living for decades because to change seems too difficult or threatening. Others examine the foundations of their lives and see the need for growth.
I think you should consider carefully how productive it is to evaluate your future on the basis of what you experienced as a twenty-something 'rebellious' JW. What you describe of your life with drugs and Satanists is not typical of life outside the Watchtower organization. Such a scenario is not the only alternative to clinging to JW beliefs that have obviously ceased to serve you.
JW thinking sees issues in only two dimensions: Either one is a loyal servant of Jehovah or one is cast into outer darkness with the Satan worshippers. This is a false dichotomy. Those are not the only two options. Sometimes young JWs, unprepared to deal with the pressures of life outside the mind control, or striving to carve out an independent identity, do behave in extreme or personally destructive ways when they leave the controls of JW life. But you are not a twenty-year-old. You are a mature adult who has a mind and a sense of moral ethics that are your personal possession-not the property of the Watchtower Society. Neither is your faith in God or the Bible a property of the JWs. Whether you keep that or not is up to you. 'The world' has no agenda to convert you to atheism.
I am struck by your assertion that "the world is a dangerous place" and "there is no love outside the organization." These sentiments are the thoughts of those who weekly program you to fear anything outside the tight boundaries of JW thinking and life. These stock JW phrases are thought-stopping mantras that keep the bound self from seeking answers to questions that seem too dangerous to ask. Yes, there are dangers out in the world, but they are the same dangers everyone alive faces. And as for there being no love outside the organization, that is certainly not my experience. Many here, I am sure, will tell you that they have seen far more love from so-called worldly people that they have from JWs.
You have taken a step. You have reached out to post on a board where you can ask any question and have any opinion, something you cannot do in the WT Organization. I remember nine years ago, when I first posted here, scared to pieces about what I would face as I began to look at life outside the confines of JW thinking. What I have found is a path to personal growth which I could not have imagined I would ever achieve. Just keep talking, listening, and thinking.