"What you hate, you BECOME."
TerryWalstrom
JoinedPosts by TerryWalstrom
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Clever/snappy comeback for "you're an apostate"
by Dagney ini'm looking for some clever comebacks.
i really don't care that i am an apostate, but would like to deliver a quick comeback or two to perhaps make the other person think.
any suggestions most welcome.
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Legal scholars: JW court cases before Supreme Court were "accidental wins."
by TerryWalstrom inthe outcomes of jehovah's witness court cases, to most first amendment scholars, the witness successes in court, especially the supreme court, were accidental.
legal scholars have uniformly dismissed the witnesses' methods for bringing about first amendment cases, referring to their legal successes as mere unintended consequences of fanatical preaching.
for example, legal scholar bernard schwartz noted that jehovah's witnesses, "who became involved in trouble with the law were only seeking to propagate their unpopular creed.
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TerryWalstrom
I'm tempted to put a comma in there!
Jehovah's Witnesses, Tools of the Trade.
They ARE tools, ya know.
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TerryWalstrom
Look at the tell-tale dimple in his chin! -
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TerryWalstrom
Son Malcolm C. Rutherford was born November 10, 1892, and died June 22, 1989. He lived in Arcadia, California, at age 97
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TerryWalstrom
The old man in 1891, when he was a young man of 22 years:
Let's face it--he was a strapping fellow who worked very hard for his father. His dad would only agree to allow young Joe to go to law school if it didn't interfere with chores. His Dad undoubtedly thought that would stop his son. But, no. Joe hired a day laborer and paid him out of pocket to take his place.
Young Joe put himself through school selling encyclopedias . . . wait for it . . . wait for it . . . DOOR TO DOOR!
Further, he learned and mastered shorthand so he could pick up extra cash as a court stenographer. Incidentally, this experience as Stenographer greatly familiarized him with the minute details of conducting a legal defense and presenting a case to a jury.
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The Man Who Interviewed the Apostles
by TerryWalstrom inmeet papias.
if you had lived in the time of the living apostles of jesus would you have personally investigated stories about.
or, would you simply read whatever was written instead?.
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TerryWalstrom
MEET PAPIAS
If you had lived in the time of the living Apostles of Jesus would you have personally investigated stories about
him? Or, would you simply read whatever was written instead?
There was a man named Papias who made that decision for himself.
He interviewed the Apostles and eye-witnesses while they yet lived and shunned the written word.
He searched for the real story, the true story.
I would like to introduce him to you and tell you of his fate and explain why you have probably NEVER EVEN HAVE HEARD OF HIM!
His name was Papias.
Papias was born around the time of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans or shortly thereafter. He lived in the same century as Jesus and his apostles. He was the sort of man who wants to go to the source rather than rely on hearsay, as others did.
Travelers from outside of his birthplace (Turkey) had brought wonder stories of miracles, teachings and writings about Jesus and his followers which changed Papias into a man driven to investigate how much might be true and learn the details.
He collected sayings, writings and listened to stories before setting out on his own to find as many as were still alive to personally interview those who might tell him all that could be known for certain.
Listen now as Papias tell you what he did in his own words:
“…I formerly learned with care from the (elders) and have carefully stored (what I learned) in memory, giving assurance of its truth… And also if any follower of the presbyters happened to come, I would inquire for the sayings of the presbyters, what said, Andrew or what Peter said, or what Philip or what Thomas or James or what James or Matthew or any other of the Lord's disciples, and for the things which other of the Lord's disciples, and for the things which Aristion and the Presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, were saying. For I considered that I should not get so much advantage from matter in books as from the voice which yet lives and remains…”
Like a modern investigative reporter from 60 Minutes, Papias sought out first-generation apostles and disciples of Jesus, and sometimes other elders who were hearers of the apostles.
Contemporary scholars such as Helmut Koester consider him to be the earliest surviving written witness of this tradition (Koester, 1990 pp. 32f) Papias also seems to have collected stories regarding the earliest history of the church after Jesus' death.
What an astonishingly significant find! Surely, the writings of Papias must be second in importance only to the bible itself, right?
Get ready to be shocked……..Wrong!
Like the original autograph manuscripts of actual bible writers, so too, Papias’ writings were NOT PRESERVED. They exist only in quotations by other early church fathers!
The Roman Emperor Constantine had his own official biographer, Eusebius, whose Ecclesiatical history is the go-to book for church history by mainstream Christianity.
Remember, it is the Catholic doctrine which shaped modern understanding of the bible, the apostles and what is orthodox!
Eusebius did not like what Papias had written. Not at all!
Why?
Eusebius did not agree with what Papias had written and sought to use ad hominem to destroy his reputation, to minimize him as a thinker and perhaps even eliminate the writings by burning them. We may never know for certain.
Eusebius defamed Papias this way:
“Papias is a man of small mental capacity who mistook the figurative language of apostolic traditions
Why the cutting remarks? Eusebius did not believe in a Millennial reign by Christ upon the earth that would usher in a paradise. So, Eusebius bad-mouthed him when Papias quoted the followers of Jesus as having taught this very thing.
Eusebius says:
Among which he says that there will be a period of some ten thousand years after the resurrection, and that the
kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this earth. These ideas I suppose he got through a
misunderstanding of the apostolic accounts, not perceiving that the things recorded there in figures were spoken by
them mystically.Fortunately, Eusebius quoted some of Papias’ writings and we can stitch together what he said about certain things, such as:
“Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements. Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could.”
What an insight we’d not have known about were it not for Papias!
What we now call the bible might not be much of anything like writings seen, touched, and experienced by Papias! Eusebius was in a unique position to eliminate anything he Felt would undermine the work of his Council of Nicea (convened to create a single orthodoxy)
There is question whether the documents which Papias knew as the Gospels of Matthew and Mark are even the same ones that we have today!
Papias may well have seen the ORIGINALS, the uncorrupted texts written by the authors themselves! Papias may have written down what they actually said.
Matthew is a narrative, rather than a sayings gospel with commentary, and some scholars reject the thesis that it was originally written in Hebrew at all!
Papias also related a number of traditions that Eusebius had characterized as "some strange parables and teachings of the savior, and some other more mythical accounts.”
The nerve! If you don’t like it—discredit it. Thanks to Eusebius.
Papias also related a tradition on the death of Judas Iscariot, in which Judas became so swollen (Obese, fat, over weight) he could not pass where a chariot could easily and was crushed by a chariot, so that his bowels gushed out.
No known fact is inconsistent with c. 60-135 as the period of Papias's life. Eusebius (3.36) calls him "bishop" of Hierapolis (in Turkey).
It has even been written that Papias might have been the very scribe used by the Apostle John in his own writings!
"The Gospel of John was made known and given to the Churches by John, while he yet remained in the body; as (one) Papias by name, of Hierapolis, a beloved disciple of John, has related in his five exoteric (exegetical?) books; but he wrote down the Gospel at the dictation of John, correctly" (Codex Alexandrinus 14).
What, if anything, can we know for certain about Jesus if all original writings about him were systematically eliminated by men in power (such as Eusebius) who had their own agenda to put forward?
Eusebius was a powerful man having the confidence and the ear of the Roman Christian emperor Constantine. Yet, he may have been alone in considering Papias to be weak minded and confused.
For he evidently was a man of very mean capacity, as one may say judging from his own statements: yet it was owing to him that so many church fathers after him adopted a like opinion, urging in their own support the antiquity of the man, as for instance Irenaeus and whoever else they were who declared that they held like views.
What can be learned from Papias?
- Honest investigators of the truth about Jesus, his teachings and his followers met with strong opposition by the very men who canonized scripture!
- Disagreement between early church fathers was rampant.
3. Nothing original has been preserved beyond fragmentary quotations.
Jehovah's Witness have built a massive and tedious theology around what they call "inerrant scripture".
But, historically, no uncorrupt autograph manuscripts have been allowed to survive. Even interviews and quotations by honesty investigators have been suppressed by the early church.
Isn't it time we acknowledge that the Christian religion today is a massive compilation of opinion, interpretation and "official" storytelling which cannot
proof text any orthodoxy at all?
Investigate for yourself and draw your own conclusions.
**Papias was also disliked because he stood in the way of the tradition that John the son of Zebedee wrote the gospel of John. The John of Ephesus that he personally knew was not John the disciple of the Lord, as he distinguished John the "elder" from John the apostle. Moreover, he reported the tradition that the two sons of Zebedee died early in Jerusalem (the gospel of Mark appears to imply similarly that the two sons would be martyred in ch. 10, and Mark was likely written in the late 60s).
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TerryWalstrom
Yep. Judge Rutherford's son. That one was snapped in 1917. Malcom was fighting being drafted into WWI as a Bible Student.
Nice looking young man. He was thoroughly anonymous. He never wrote a word I've been able to find; not even about his (in)famous father.
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TerryWalstrom
I'll bet you don't know who this person is.
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THIS IS A FUN QUIZ: Test your deep knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses
by TerryWalstrom inthis is a pop quiz.
this quiz will test your deep knowledge of jehovah's witnesses.. the question will be immediately followed by the source of the answer and the answer itself.. please test yourself by stopping after the question and thinking about how you would answer.
before reading the answer.
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THIS IS A FUN QUIZ: Test your deep knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses
by TerryWalstrom inthis is a pop quiz.
this quiz will test your deep knowledge of jehovah's witnesses.. the question will be immediately followed by the source of the answer and the answer itself.. please test yourself by stopping after the question and thinking about how you would answer.
before reading the answer.
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TerryWalstrom
This is a Pop Quiz
This quiz will test your DEEP knowledge of Jehovah's Witnesses.
The Question will be immediately followed by the source of the answer and the answer itself.
Please test yourself by stopping after the question and thinking about how you would answer
before reading the answer. Or else--it isn't really a quiz, now is it? :)
Pencil ready? Put on your thinking cap.
When you finish, (you are on the honor system) report your correct vs. incorrect answers.
BEGIN!
A.
Question: This entity known as _____________ is the main legal entity used worldwide by Jehovah’s Witnesses. It holds the copyrights of most literature published by JW’s.
Question: What year was the “Society” founded? Who was the first President? Who was secretary-treasurer?
______________________________________________________
A.
Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom(Watchtower, 1993), p. 576.
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania is a non-stock, not-for-profit organization headquartered in the New York City borough of Brooklyn, United States. It is the main legal entity used worldwide by Jehovah's Witnesses, often referred to as "The Society". It holds the copyrights of most literature published by Jehovah's Witnesses. The society was founded in 1881 with William Henry Conley, a Pittsburgh businessman, as the first president and Charles Taze Russell as secretary-treasurer.
B.
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. stated purposes are:
Choose any from the following list which apply
1. Charitable
2. benevolent
3. scientific
4. historical
5. literary
6. religious purposes
7. the moral and mental improvement of men and women
8. the dissemination of Bible truths in various languages by means of the publication of tracts, pamphlets, papers and other religious documents, and for religious missionary work.
B.
"The Warning Work (1909-1914)", The Watchtower, March 1, 1955, page 141
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. is a corporation used by Jehovah's Witnesses, which is responsible for administrative matters, such as real estate, especially within the United States. This corporation is typically cited as the publisher of Jehovah's Witnesses publications, though other publishers are sometimes cited. The corporation's stated purposes are: “Charitable, benevolent, scientific, historical, literary and religious purposes; the moral and mental improvement of men and women, the dissemination of Bible truths in various languages by means of the publication of tracts, pamphlets, papers and other religious documents, and for religious missionary work.”
C.
Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. directors need to be members of the Governing Body. True/ False?
C.
"How the Governing Body Differs From a Legal Corporation". The Watchtower: 29. 15 January 2001.
True: Until 2000, a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses was president of both the Watch Tower (Pennsylvania) and Watchtower (New York) corporations, as well as Britain's International Bible Students Association corporation; in 2001, it was decided that the corporations' directors need not be members of the Governing Body
D. Jehovah’s Witnesses are controlled worldwide by non-profit corporations.
In the United States, as of 2001, does this religion report any annual revenue? Y/N?
___________________________________________________
D.
"Newsday.com article". Watchtowernews.org. 2001-09-17. Retrieved 2012-12-31.
In 2001 the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York was listed among the top forty revenue-generating companies in New York City, reporting an annual revenue of about 951 million US dollars.
E. Does the International Bible Students Association support and promote Jehovah’s Witnesses? Y/N?
____________________________________________________________________
E.
"Charity Commission (UK): International Bible Students Association.". Retrieved 2013-06-06.
YES: The International Bible Students Association (IBSA) is a corporate not-for-profit organizationused by Jehovah's Witnesses in the United Kingdom for the production and distribution of religious literature. Its stated purpose is "to promote the Christian religion by supporting congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses and others in connection with their spiritual and material welfare in Britain and abroad within the charitable purposes of the Association."
F. Is Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. and its subordinates required to file federal income tax returns? Y/N?
_________________________________________________________
F.
No: Your organization and its subordinates are not required to file federal income tax returns unless subject to the tax on unrelated business income under section 51 1 of the Code.
G. Jehovah’s Witness policy of prohibition of Alternate service acceptance in lieu of military service was changed in 1996 to a ‘matter of conscience’ because of what?
________________________________________________________
G.
H. Year designated by Pastor Russell as the year of Christ’s invisible return? Year predicted as the visible return of Christ?
_____________________________________________________________
H.
http://www.religionfacts.com/jehovahs_witnesses/timeline.htm
1874
Year designated by Charles Taze Russell as the year of Christ's invisible return (with the visible return to occur in 1914).
