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i will say:i don't need the watchtower magazine because i already know what it says: since i'm an apostate, wicked slave class worldly person and don't beleive the new light from the governing body of the faithful and discrete slave class, i will be buzzard meat at armageddon very soon now, unless there is more new light about it not being as soon as predicted, like so many times before.
ken p.
I still enjoy the debate. So I would invite them in so they would find it harder to leave while I pummeled them with scriptures. Most of them won't leave as long as you talk to them from the scriptures. They feel that they are better equipped to handle a scriptural debate. HA. I can't wait. The only problem is that most of the JWs that would knock on my door already know me and would not come into my house. Bummer.
TimB
Just for the record I consider myself a skeptic. That doesn't mean the I don't have any beliefs. It is possible that I can be skeptical of something of that is absolutely true but when someone is skeptical and questions a generally accepted "truth", he'll do research and experiments that will confirm or disprove that "truth". That's a good thing. So, yes, a skeptic does come to a conclusion when they are personally satisfied with the facts.
TimB
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my brother, my sister, myself, xena and those with us walked out when we were called aside and asked not to attend the reception after the memorial.. more details to follow....... timb
I would like to say thank you to all who have expressed their condolences and concern. There is so much empathy in this group of people and I don't think we learned it from the Dubs. Most of us have suffered in one form or another from being JW's. Your feelings for your fellow human being is what proves that they don't have IT. Because I can see the contrast between the love of the organization and the love of friends and strangers here I choose to come here and be with the kind of people I want to emulate. Thank you all.
TimB
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my brother, my sister, myself, xena and those with us walked out when we were called aside and asked not to attend the reception after the memorial.. more details to follow....... timb
Well, my conversation with Rutherford was frustrating to say the least. I asked him who told him that I wasn't invited. He said that he never knew the name of the brother that he talked to. I asked him how he knew it was a brother if he didn't get a name. Obviously lying to keep from having to give me the name of the one was ultimately responsible. I later found out from my dad.
He said that they were just following Jehovah's direction. I asked how he knew what Jehovah's direction is. That's when I pointed out that the organization has changed thoughout the years. He denied that they have changed. He said that they were being refined then proceeded to tell me, as if I hadn't heard over a thousand times the illustration of how gold is refined to remove the impurities. I told him that god is not in the gold business. We're talking about people and an organization of people which have slightly different physical and mental properties. But I said "I'll use your own illustration to make my point. If you take a lump of gold and measure it's weight and appearance before it's refined and the impurities are removed and then measure it after you'll see that it has changed. So refining means changing. It's just another word for the same thing.
I asked if it were his wife that had died and his son was df'd, would he tell his son that he wasn't invited to be with the family after the memorial service and he said the he said that he probably would. I told him that I've been to several funerals in the local congregation over the years and they've never called it a dinner. If anything they would announce that the family would be returning home and that those who want to be with them could come for a while. Those who came usually brought some sort of food but it wasn't a dinner. It was just an opportunity for the family to be consoled by the friends. Those who were uncomfortable being there just didn't come. No hard feelings.
He saying: "I don't know where you've been getting your information". I simply said that I used my brain. I don't need someone to tell me what to think or do. I have some common sense.
That was one of the most frustrating conversations I've ever had. He just refused to accept the truth even when it was slapping him in the face. He must have quoted from 3 different dictionaries to find the definitions he needed. For instance, I told him that I was tired of his condecending tone of voice and he condecending questions. He thanked me for calling him condecending since the Oxford Colligiate Dictionary says that condecending means to bend down and help someone. Ha. I asked him if he'd ever heard that word used in that context. It certainly wasn't meant to be a complement.
I talked to my dad today and I asked him for his feelings about what happened. He said that the congregation just wanted to have a dinner for him and that since it was a dinner then they couldn't eat with df'd and da'd people according to the scriptures. I reminded him that I haven't been disfellowshiped. He said that they felt that I had disassociated myself. I told him that they never made an announcement and they didn't call me. My phone number is no secret. They've never brought any accusation to me. Now it seems that they are telling everyone that I disassociated myself. I asked him why in this particular instance they decided not to wait on Jehovah's organization's direction. They made up their own rules. He said that he hasn't been to the meetings in the last 3 months due to mom's illness and that he may have missed the announcement. As if he wouldn't have heard about it in less than one hour.
At one point, when I accused him of not caring for his own son, he reminded me that he has a picture of a christmas tree in my house. He asked if I wanted him to take it to the elders. I asked if he was threatening me. As if it wasn't plain as day. He said that he just wanted to know what I wanted. I said that I just wanted to be treated like a son........
TimB
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my brother, my sister, myself, xena and those with us walked out when we were called aside and asked not to attend the reception after the memorial.. more details to follow....... timb
Last Night I called the guy who gave the memorial talk, my dad's best friend. William F. Rutherford. I talked to him for about an hour and a half. I don't have time right now to give all the details but I will later. As we were hanging up he said that he wished that he could some how be in my shoes for a while so he could feel what I feel and empathize with me better. I told him: "I wish you could be in my shoes right now. You deserve it." He was OK with the way that the funeral was handled.
I'm not df'd but he said that I had da'd myself by my actions. I asked him which actions he was talking about specifically and the only thing he could come up with was that I haven't been going to the meetings. I disobeyed a command given by god at heb. 10: 25.
More from the discussion later......
TimB
a strange thing happened to me while watching a television movie on the life of the late nascar star dale earnhardt; i got choked up remembering a close family member who died at an early age.. .
for those of you who aren't familar with earnhardt, his father died when dale was a young man and this movie portrayed him pretty much living his entire life trying to live up to his father's ideals.
of course he died on the race track having some of the same issues with his own son, now a superstar on the track.. .
I can remember when my mother's mom died. (24 years ago) She lived with us for the last year of her life and I grew close to her but I didn't shed a tear for her passing. I told myself and others that it was because she was one of the anointed and that she went straight to heaven so there was no need to grieve. I still feel weird about that. I'm normally not that guarded with my emotions but I do remember thinking that it was somehow proof of my faith. ............Now that's sad.
TimB
i know there's no such word as "witnessy" but this can be a fun thread.
"AA AAA AAAA CHEW" Ble...... um I mean...g.....uh ..........You need a tissue?
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my brother, my sister, myself, xena and those with us walked out when we were called aside and asked not to attend the reception after the memorial.. more details to follow....... timb
You all may be pleased to know that this incident is causing a shake up in the local JW community. It seems that there were "guards" at the door of the reception stopping all that weren't JWs. There were a others that didn't find out that they weren't welcome until they tried to enter the reception. One of these was the son of a witness in another local congregation who was thinking of becoming a JW. Needless to say that one is saved. He won't be a JW anytime soon. They talked to the elders in their own congregation and those elders vowed to write to the society for clarification on the rules of such a scenario. My cousin who is an elder in another local congregation also said that he would be finding out who made the rule to exclude the non JWs (including his own sister). He was there and remarked that he's never been to a funeral reception that felt so cold and quiet.
The news has traveled fast around here. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
My JW brother, who is currently fighting for custody of his three sons, will suddenly find that his ex wife has some ammunition to use in her battle. There's nothing illegal or unethical about giving her this story to present to the judge.
TimB
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my brother, my sister, myself, xena and those with us walked out when we were called aside and asked not to attend the reception after the memorial.. more details to follow....... timb
My dad called me this evening. He's leaving town on business for a week and asked me if I would feed his cat. I told him I would. Needless to say I felt some mixed emotions with this call but I agreed to watch the cat for him so that he knows for sure that I will not be controlled by the rules of this cult. We will have a discussion when he get's back about why he couldn't ask one of the 5 witness families that live not less than 200 feet from his front door. We'll talk about who his family really is.
I got a call this evening from another one of my brothers. He lives out of town and is a semi-active JW. He didn't walk out. I asked him what was being said. (He kinda stays out of things) It turns out that my dad was told the day before that the "dinner" afterward was for him and that they wanted it to be witnesses only. He asked my youngest sister to inform us. Just before he was going to leave for the memorial service he asked her if she told us. She said that she figured that we would "blow up" and she said that it would be better if he did it. That left him with the task of telling us as we arrived. Now I just would just like to find out specifically who put those conditions on my family's precious rare opportunity to grieve together.
I think I may have left out a very important part. .....My sister, Brooke, works with some very nice people who volunteered to take a picture of mom and blow it up for the memorial service. When Brooke arrived at the kingdom hall she set up the picture on the stage. Very nice. We were out in the parking lot preparing to leave when we realized that we'd left the picture on the stage. My sister's boyfriend and another of their friends marched into the kingdom hall and took the picture off the easel and walked through all the witnesses with their mouths open so that we could have the picture for our service. Soon thereafter is when we realized that Brooke's daughter (age 5) had gone back inside and I went in and walked up to the front row where she was sitting in my father's lap. I took her hand and said: "Come on. We have to go."
I wish every ex JW could experience the power and release that comes from standing up for yourself and your family in such and emotionally charged situation. I feel like I could conquer the world. Actually, I finally feel like a MAN!!!
TimB
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my brother, my sister, myself, xena and those with us walked out when we were called aside and asked not to attend the reception after the memorial.. more details to follow....... timb
Thank you all for your love and support in this difficult time. The love I feel from you is a beautiful contrast to what I've seen from my JW siblings the last few days.
The last few days did have their beautiful moments. We did have almost two weeks to sit by her side and listen to her tell us what she wanted us to accomplish with our lives. Of course she wanted to see us in the paradise but she didn't get preachy. She kept telling us to go out and play. I told her: "Mom, I'm 40 years old. I don't go out and play." She kept saying that she wanted us to have a party and we honored that wish by having a celebration after our ceremony. I didn't get to bed til 3:30 last night.
We were able to be there for dad for the last couple of weeks in spite of our religious status. We held him. We cleaned their house. We sat with old friends and cried our eyes out. One of the most incredible experiences of the last two weeks was that we found my mom's brother. She hadn't seen or spoken with him in almost 30 years. He came to see here while she could still talk and smile and hold his hand. The beauty of that moment would compare to the wonders of the world. We found another of her siblings that couldn't make it but the other two were able to reunite over the phone. We've now reconnected with my mom's side of the family and will be planning a small reunion soon to get to know all the cousins and aunts and uncles we've never met. For this reason, I will always be able to look back on this and smile.
TimB
