EdenOne

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Posts by EdenOne

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  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

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  EdenOne

  Your god is beneath my contempt.

  That's fine with him. That's why He gave humans free will, so that they could exercise it, as you are now. Yet, no one, even the non-believers, are beyond salvation, which keeps on being extended to everyone through faith in Christ.

  Still, you're exercising double standards. If humans are nothing but sophisticated animals (as an atheist would posite), why would God be morally responsable for the fate of humans any more than a sea lion who gets caught by an orca?

  Eden
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  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  May I ask where do you get the origin of this idea of "sonship"? And why was a sonship needed?

  Luke 3:38 - "Kenan was the son of Enosh. Enosh was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God."

  Romans 8:14 - " For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God."

  Galatians 3:26 - "For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

  Galatians 4:6 - " Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

  Eden
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  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Cofty: For 200 000 years your god watched suffering on an unimaginable scale. He is a moral monster.

  For millions of years God watched predators eat prey using incredible violence and bloodbath. Why do you call it the 'natural cycle' and don't say that God is a moral monster based on THAT? If before Adam and Eve the human beings were no more than sophisticated animals, why would God be blamed for letting humans behave as any other animal would, live and die? You're using double standards here.

  Eden
• 
  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Cofty: You start with theistic evolution until Homo sapiens finally appear. God sits and watches 200 000 years of suffering even though these early humans had all the potential for anguish, despair and for learning that we have. After a couple of hundred millennia god grows to like these plucky humans and decides to make a new pair of them from scratch.

  You pretty much nailed my scenario this far.

  Cofty: Complete with highly evolved brains these two shiney new humans tell god to go f### himself and use their god-given curiosity to investigate the world. God smites them and they go off and breed with the prototype humans resulting in all of us.

  I don't think that Adam and Eve were any more "evolved" than the best Homo Sapiens of their time. Although they were a new direct creation from God, their design was a slightly improved copy of the existing specimens of their time. Perhaps their bodies had slight improvements designed to make them live longer, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible that God promised them that they would live forever on earth. I don't see in the account of Genesis a full-blown ouright rebellion of Adam and Eve. Satan, on the other hand, is a crafty rebel with a hidden agenda. Adam and Eve were just curious brats, trying to take a peek into that spiritual realm that they knew existed but they couldn't see. I don't think they were fully aware of the consequences their disobedience would have, despite the stern warning from God. Jehovah didn't take it lightly and made good on his threat. They died on the same day - not physically, because that wasn't the type of death that God had in mind, but God cut the spiritual ties of sonship with them. Naturally He kept on taking care of them, and they kept on worshipping their God; this can be seen from the fact that Eve, when gave birth to Cain, said:"I produced a son with the help of Jehovah!". However, the first generation after Adam and Eve went on to interbreed with the other existing humans - perhaps any trace of their DNA fingerprint got lost over time, only the geneology from Adam until Abraham got recorded and preserved for future memory.

  Eden
• 
  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  QC: Then, how does the ape/man fit in with the messianic theme of the Bible? Where is the ape/man cut off point for salvation?

  In this scenario, salvation becomes a necessity only after Adam and Eve receive sonship from God and susequently lose it for themselves and for all their descendants. Before Adam and Eve, no human being was "son of God", and therefore, no "salvation" was necessary. There simply was no hope, for there was nothing being offered.

  Eden
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  44

  Maybe I'm the bad guy after all

  by braincleaned in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  maybe i'm the bad guy after all.

  my mom and sis love me and still talk to me, although i'm clearly an apostate.

  their loophole?

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  EdenOne

  Bipolarism is no joke - Please take care of yourself and avoid stressing situations. This forum can be a source of stress, so protect yourself

  Eden
• 
  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  braincleaned: I ask you if you are willing to reconsider your convictions on this

  I've been a young earth creationist all my life until a couple of years ago. I've reconsidered. Is that proof enough for you than I am able to reconsider my convictions if I find it absolutely imperative? However, I don't change my convictions on-demand. If that's not good enough for you to keep a frank discussion going, then I wish you a good one as well.

  braincleaned: Fair enough, you are just inventing things up I'm afraid. (...) your very personal hypothesis, or is this actually a conviction set in stone?

  Like I said, this is just an hypothesis. I'm not proposing a theology, just an attempt at a viable conciliation between the Bible and what science has established so far. It's therefore not set in stone. Does it have problems? Sure it has. Can my elaborate hypothesis be readjusted as it tries to reach a better explanation, address and overcome valid criticisms? Sure. Does that become "inventing things"? I disagree.

  QC: Now that you believe in everything, Evolution and the Bible, etc., you’re a certifiable kook from the land of Lars.

  I knew that sort of ad hominem was coming sooner or later. Fortunately I'm not out there to please you or anyone else, evolutionist or JW. I stand by my own beliefs and opinions. And I share them if anyone wants to listen or discuss them or contribute to better them or disprove them. I don't believe in "everything". I do believe however that there are valid truths on both sides of this story, and I'm attempting a viable explanation of it.

  For the third time ...

  you may ask pretty please ten times; I will only answer when I have time for it. I've working today - since 4 am - as I am every day, btw.

  Eden
• 
  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  Braincleaned,

  You insist of tying physical "perfection" with the absence of the "original sin". That's besides the point. I don't think that Adam and Eve were necessarily "perfect" in the physical sense. Perfection encompasses the notion of "fit to the purpose; complete". The perfection of Adam and Eve was about being complete with that spiritual bond with God, the "sonship" that other humans lacked. It doesn't necessarily mean that Adam and Eve would not age, get a flu, have an accident or die, like all other humans. It merely meant that they would die a final death without any access to the spiritual, eternal realm. This is the reason that God told them that "on the day" they would eat the fruit, they would die. If God was talking about a physical death, they would have to be instantly executed. But God was talking about their eternal life that was tied with their sonship. By losing their sonship, they were as good as dead from the day the ate the fruit onwards.

  Eden
• 
  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  It seems to me you are suggesting that all of us on earth are descendant from A&E — otherwise, Jesus did not need to be perfect to 'save' all humanity.

  No, I haven't suggested that at all. I said that A & E's descendants mixed with the rest of mankind, so today there is no trace of them to be singled out in our genes. There's a distinct probability that there were many people living on earth in Jesus' time that didn't have any direct link to Adam and Eve. However, all of them lacked that "sonship" towards God. That lacking is THE primary sin that condemns mankind to final death. Nowhere in the Bible you can find a direct link between sin and ageing - that's JW theology. (Btw, nowhere in the Bible you find God promising Adam and Eve that they would live forever on earth). You find a suggestion that sin is linked with illness, yes. But not ageing. Jesus came to offer to mankind what Adam and Eve failed to provide - eternal life in an eternal realm, through sonship with God.

  Eden
• 
  154

  Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

  it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

  why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  EdenOne

  braincleaned:

  how do you rationalize the two conflicting beliefs: evolution and creation?
  How could Adam & Eve lose perfection after hundred thousands years of human existance?

  In my hypothesis, Adam and Eve were created as a separate human couple in a time where this planet was already inhabited by human populations who evolved over the course of millions of years. What made this couple special was the fact that they were "sons of God", with a spiritual bond between them and their maker. The "original sin" [what in one of my articles I call Primary Sin] is about losing their sonship towards God by their disobedience. Their descendants after them were already born without this special spiritual bond. By interbreeding, they became just like the other humans already in existence, subject to sin [what i call "derivative sin"]. Actually, to start with, there was nothing in their DNA that would make them any different from the other humans already in existence, except the fact that they have been created directly by God and were, therefore, their children.

  With Adam and Eve, God gave mankind the possibility to rise and overcome physical decay and death by accessing the spiritual realm after their existence on earth was over - thus the meaning of eating from the "tree of knowledge" and from the "tree of life". They would ultimately eat from those - but on God's chosen time, not theirs. Unfortunately, Adam and Eve wasted that gift and thus wasted it also for their descendants after them. Mankind remained without hope. Christ came to restore the "sonship" towards God by means of a redemption.

  Edit: So that you know my background, I'm an active JW who happens to have a substancial amount of unorthodox positions compared to the WTS.

  Eden