Posts by EdenOne

14

Could the law abiding Jesus or his disciples have used a coin depicting Caesar?

by EdenOne in

so, i was just viewing an interview with professor yonathan adler regarding the origins of judaism as an everyday practice of the masses.

he makes a very convincing argument that the jews only became torah observants in a generalized way around the beginning of the hasmonean dynasty, between the 3rd and 2nd centuries bc.

you can watch the interview here:.

EdenOne

Kaleboutwest your insight on judaism is most welcome.

peacefulpete: "Especially the way it is written with the assumption of the image on the coin."

This is where I was getting at. The story is told by Mark, and then mirrored by Matthew and Luke, but "Mark" has no idea that it would be very unlikely that around 30 CE there were coins in daily circulation in Judea with the effigy of Caesar. "Mark" seems to be ignorant that the carrier of such coin would become ceremonially impure. Jesus may well have taught "give Caesar what belongs to Caesar" [pay your taxes to the Roman authority ] but "Mark" is just making up the use of a denarius to illustrate that point, probably because "Mark" (whoever was the author of that gospel) probably never set foot in Judea.
"Mark" probably wrote at least 4 decades after the fact, with third or fourth hand knowledge, to a roman audience, in Rome.

14

Could the law abiding Jesus or his disciples have used a coin depicting Caesar?

by EdenOne in

so, i was just viewing an interview with professor yonathan adler regarding the origins of judaism as an everyday practice of the masses.

he makes a very convincing argument that the jews only became torah observants in a generalized way around the beginning of the hasmonean dynasty, between the 3rd and 2nd centuries bc.

you can watch the interview here:.

EdenOne

So, I was just viewing an interview with Professor Yonathan Adler regarding the origins of judaism as an everyday practice of the masses. He makes a very convincing argument that the jews only became Torah observants in a generalized way around the beginning of the Hasmonean dynasty, between the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC. You can watch the interview here:

https://youtu.be/5U1TN-i0x7g

One thing that he said that stood out for me was this: Around Jesus' days, the authorities, out of respect for the jews' sensibilities, didn't mint coins in Judea depicting humans or animals or gods. Archaeology confirms this.

Now, in Mark, Matthew and Luke, Jesus answers a trap question from his adversaries regarding tax payment to the roman authority by asking one of his disciples for a coin, which is referred to as a "denarius" and points to the face on that coin, asking who is it of? "Caesar", everyone replies.

The accounts of the Roman tax episode in the gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke differ in regard to the identity of the people who were questioning Jesus. In Matthew’s gospel it is the Pharisees who sent their disciples with the Herodians. In Mark’s gospel it is the chief priests, the scribes and the elders who sent the Pharisees and Herodians. In Luke’s gospel it is the scribes and the chief priests who sent spies.

In any case, such coins wouldn't be commonly circulating in Judea because any jew would become ritually impure just by touching that object! How, then, could:

a) Jesus' disciples, being Torah observants, have such a coin?

b) How could the Torah observant Jesus hold and show an idolatrous coin just to make a point this becoming ritually impure by it?

What are your thoughts?

18

JW words ph rases I don't recall seeing in the Bible

by enoughisenough in

i was trying to think of some common jw words and phrases i don't think are in the bible .. new world order new system spiritual israel governing body channel of communication organization reporting time pioneer aux pioneer circuit overseer kingdom hall circuit assembly district convention....,maybe you can think of something to add if you are inclined..

EdenOne

Spiritual Paradise

Irregular

Inactive

Service Privileges

Brochures

Tracts

Watch Tower

6

Images

by peacefulpete in

simple question.

while the deuteronomists and later writers of the bible condemned the use of images of yahweh, they at the same time imagined him and described him in text as a man in the sky with bow and arrows or riding a chariot drawn by cherubs or sitting on a throne.

if the former is a dishonor, ought not the latter be as well?.

EdenOne

In one of the most intriguing passages of the OT, we read:

Exodus 24:9 Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.

Not only Moses, but more than 70 of the elders of Israel saw YHWH and describe seeing at least some anthropomorphic traits (his feet) that were as real as the precious blue pavement he stood upon. And the scribe goes to lengths to explain that they were not slain by 'seeing the God of Israel'.

Now, this is intriguing, because later on, on a more well known passage, we read:

Exodus 33:18 - "Then Moses said, “Now show me your glory.” 19 And the Lord said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21 Then the Lord said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock.22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”

The author of Exodus can't make up his mind about YHWH; He writes that Moses asked to see YHWH's "glory", and it's YHWH that replies by attributing to himself anthropomorphic traits, such as "face", "hand" and " back". And then says that no man can see his face and live. Well, that's clearly at odds with what was said on chapter 24. Plus, the face is so real that seeing it can cause someone to die. It's as real as it gets, for the author of Exodus.

In other recorded story in Genesis 18, Abraham converses with Yahweh who appears to him in an anthropomorphic shape; and in Judges 13, Manoah and his wife saw Yahweh (and were persuaded that they would surely die because they had seen him), but that wasn't the case. The author of Judges writes that it was the "angel of the Lord", but the story eventually goes on to imply that it was Yahweh himself.

So, there is one strain of tradition within the OT (possibly a layer that is older than the Deuteronomistic) that has no problem in attributing anthropomorphic traits to Yahweh, and even depicting him walking and interacting with mankind, and representations of divinity weren't prohibited. Why did David kept an anthropomorphic idol in his house and wasn't even rebuked by it? (1 Samuel 19) It must have been an acceptable way to depict YHWH in its time, before idolatry because anathema in later times and retroprojected into ancient Israelite history.

773

Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

this has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.

this is not a joke.

anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!

EdenOne

Ozziepost - The truth is that there never was a governing body.

Nor a pope, for that matter - until they invented one. Nor "door to door preaching", until retrospectively the WT decided that the early Christians did so; nor unity of purpose between Paul and the other apostles etc etc etc ... Christianity is a religion about the mythical "Christ", not about the teachings of the historical Yeoshua.

16

The Lost Qos

by peacefulpete in

the names of the gods of palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the ot writers.

baal peor, hadad, chemosh, molech/milkom dagon, etc.

it is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, edom is never mentioned.

EdenOne

Judges 5:4 "When you, Lord, went out from Seir, when you marched from the land of Edom, the earth shook, the heavens poured, the clouds poured down water; The mountains quaked before the Lord, the One of Sinai"

Seir, Edom, Sinai .... all south from Israel. Yahweh comes from the South, commanding a storm.

Deuteronomy 33:2, 26: "The Lord came from Sinai, and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes (...) There is no one like the God of Jeshurun, who rides across the heavens to help you, and on the clouds in his majesty."

Again, Yahweh comes from the south, commanding lightening and clouds.

Habakuk 3:3 - 11: God came from Teman, the Holy One from Mount Paran (...)His splendor was like the sunrise; rays flashed from his hand, where his power was hidden. (...) He stood, and shook the earth; he looked, and made the nations tremble (...) I saw the tents of Cushan in distress, the dwellings of Midian in anguish. (...) Sun and moon stood still in the heaven, at the glint of your flying arrows, at the lightning of your flashing spear."

Again, the same imagery: Yahweh comes from his dwelling in the south to save his people, commanding the weather as he storms past the tents of his peoples' (southern) enemies, causing earthquakes and floods.

773

Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body

by WingCommander in

jw
friends

this has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.

this is not a joke.

anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!

EdenOne

if God is not part of this equation then it is all a waste of time" - Fisherman

Never truer words were spoken. The whole enterprise - is a colossal waste of time, a colossal waste of lives.

16

The Lost Qos

by peacefulpete in

the names of the gods of palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the ot writers.

baal peor, hadad, chemosh, molech/milkom dagon, etc.

it is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, edom is never mentioned.

EdenOne

But one can't overlook the association of Yah with storm / clouds / wind. Yah is also, at least at some point, a storm deity.

16

The Lost Qos

by peacefulpete in

the names of the gods of palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the ot writers.

baal peor, hadad, chemosh, molech/milkom dagon, etc.

it is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, edom is never mentioned.

EdenOne

llubrevlis2000 - "These fallen angels are the current rulers of this world (...) these are the same demons who wanted to be worshiped in the Bible times (...) at the end of the day my current beliefs are that God (YHWH or Jehovah if you add the J but that may not be accurate) never had a beginning he is from time indefinite. The firstborn of all creation is his firstborn son. Call him Jesus if you ad the J"

Ain't it an irony that you hold such beliefs, and claim that all ancient deities are in fact demons, when the handle you chose is, well, Lord Nandi ...

... or Ba'al ...

... or Apis ...

Just sayin' ... 😇

16

The Lost Qos

by peacefulpete in

the names of the gods of palestine and surrounding regions are known to most of us only through the condemnations of the ot writers.

baal peor, hadad, chemosh, molech/milkom dagon, etc.

it is therefore surprising that the main deity of the sister nation to the south, edom is never mentioned.

EdenOne

I'm cautious of assuming any of the Moses narrative is historical but like you said it contains elements that may be.

Naturally, one must take the ancient bible narratives as amalgamations of historical bits reworked over and over to fit a religious agenda. But when peeling layer after layer of fabrication, some tenuous picture starts to emerge, one where the early hebrews were polytheistic, and Yah was one of many deities worshipped by an assortment of semi-nomadic people in northen arabia - something that the later scribes and editors were eager to conceal because it didn't fit their strict monotheistic and ethnic uniqueness narratives.