Posts by EdenOne

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Cofty: For 200 000 years your god watched suffering on an unimaginable scale. He is a moral monster.

For millions of years God watched predators eat prey using incredible violence and bloodbath. Why do you call it the 'natural cycle' and don't say that God is a moral monster based on THAT? If before Adam and Eve the human beings were no more than sophisticated animals, why would God be blamed for letting humans behave as any other animal would, live and die? You're using double standards here.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Cofty: You start with theistic evolution until Homo sapiens finally appear. God sits and watches 200 000 years of suffering even though these early humans had all the potential for anguish, despair and for learning that we have. After a couple of hundred millennia god grows to like these plucky humans and decides to make a new pair of them from scratch.

You pretty much nailed my scenario this far.

Cofty: Complete with highly evolved brains these two shiney new humans tell god to go f### himself and use their god-given curiosity to investigate the world. God smites them and they go off and breed with the prototype humans resulting in all of us.

I don't think that Adam and Eve were any more "evolved" than the best Homo Sapiens of their time. Although they were a new direct creation from God, their design was a slightly improved copy of the existing specimens of their time. Perhaps their bodies had slight improvements designed to make them live longer, but I don't see anywhere in the Bible that God promised them that they would live forever on earth. I don't see in the account of Genesis a full-blown ouright rebellion of Adam and Eve. Satan, on the other hand, is a crafty rebel with a hidden agenda. Adam and Eve were just curious brats, trying to take a peek into that spiritual realm that they knew existed but they couldn't see. I don't think they were fully aware of the consequences their disobedience would have, despite the stern warning from God. Jehovah didn't take it lightly and made good on his threat. They died on the same day - not physically, because that wasn't the type of death that God had in mind, but God cut the spiritual ties of sonship with them. Naturally He kept on taking care of them, and they kept on worshipping their God; this can be seen from the fact that Eve, when gave birth to Cain, said:"I produced a son with the help of Jehovah!". However, the first generation after Adam and Eve went on to interbreed with the other existing humans - perhaps any trace of their DNA fingerprint got lost over time, only the geneology from Adam until Abraham got recorded and preserved for future memory.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

QC: Then, how does the ape/man fit in with the messianic theme of the Bible? Where is the ape/man cut off point for salvation?

In this scenario, salvation becomes a necessity only after Adam and Eve receive sonship from God and susequently lose it for themselves and for all their descendants. Before Adam and Eve, no human being was "son of God", and therefore, no "salvation" was necessary. There simply was no hope, for there was nothing being offered.

Eden

44

Maybe I'm the bad guy after all

by braincleaned in

maybe i'm the bad guy after all.

my mom and sis love me and still talk to me, although i'm clearly an apostate.

their loophole?

EdenOne

Bipolarism is no joke - Please take care of yourself and avoid stressing situations. This forum can be a source of stress, so protect yourself

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

braincleaned: I ask you if you are willing to reconsider your convictions on this

I've been a young earth creationist all my life until a couple of years ago. I've reconsidered. Is that proof enough for you than I am able to reconsider my convictions if I find it absolutely imperative? However, I don't change my convictions on-demand. If that's not good enough for you to keep a frank discussion going, then I wish you a good one as well.

braincleaned: Fair enough, you are just inventing things up I'm afraid. (...) your very personal hypothesis, or is this actually a conviction set in stone?

Like I said, this is just an hypothesis. I'm not proposing a theology, just an attempt at a viable conciliation between the Bible and what science has established so far. It's therefore not set in stone. Does it have problems? Sure it has. Can my elaborate hypothesis be readjusted as it tries to reach a better explanation, address and overcome valid criticisms? Sure. Does that become "inventing things"? I disagree.

QC: Now that you believe in everything, Evolution and the Bible, etc., you’re a certifiable kook from the land of Lars.

I knew that sort of ad hominem was coming sooner or later. Fortunately I'm not out there to please you or anyone else, evolutionist or JW. I stand by my own beliefs and opinions. And I share them if anyone wants to listen or discuss them or contribute to better them or disprove them. I don't believe in "everything". I do believe however that there are valid truths on both sides of this story, and I'm attempting a viable explanation of it.

For the third time ...

you may ask pretty please ten times; I will only answer when I have time for it. I've working today - since 4 am - as I am every day, btw.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Braincleaned,

You insist of tying physical "perfection" with the absence of the "original sin". That's besides the point. I don't think that Adam and Eve were necessarily "perfect" in the physical sense. Perfection encompasses the notion of "fit to the purpose; complete". The perfection of Adam and Eve was about being complete with that spiritual bond with God, the "sonship" that other humans lacked. It doesn't necessarily mean that Adam and Eve would not age, get a flu, have an accident or die, like all other humans. It merely meant that they would die a final death without any access to the spiritual, eternal realm. This is the reason that God told them that "on the day" they would eat the fruit, they would die. If God was talking about a physical death, they would have to be instantly executed. But God was talking about their eternal life that was tied with their sonship. By losing their sonship, they were as good as dead from the day the ate the fruit onwards.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

It seems to me you are suggesting that all of us on earth are descendant from A&E — otherwise, Jesus did not need to be perfect to 'save' all humanity.

No, I haven't suggested that at all. I said that A & E's descendants mixed with the rest of mankind, so today there is no trace of them to be singled out in our genes. There's a distinct probability that there were many people living on earth in Jesus' time that didn't have any direct link to Adam and Eve. However, all of them lacked that "sonship" towards God. That lacking is THE primary sin that condemns mankind to final death. Nowhere in the Bible you can find a direct link between sin and ageing - that's JW theology. (Btw, nowhere in the Bible you find God promising Adam and Eve that they would live forever on earth). You find a suggestion that sin is linked with illness, yes. But not ageing. Jesus came to offer to mankind what Adam and Eve failed to provide - eternal life in an eternal realm, through sonship with God.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

braincleaned:

how do you rationalize the two conflicting beliefs: evolution and creation?
How could Adam & Eve lose perfection after hundred thousands years of human existance?

In my hypothesis, Adam and Eve were created as a separate human couple in a time where this planet was already inhabited by human populations who evolved over the course of millions of years. What made this couple special was the fact that they were "sons of God", with a spiritual bond between them and their maker. The "original sin" [what in one of my articles I call Primary Sin] is about losing their sonship towards God by their disobedience. Their descendants after them were already born without this special spiritual bond. By interbreeding, they became just like the other humans already in existence, subject to sin [what i call "derivative sin"]. Actually, to start with, there was nothing in their DNA that would make them any different from the other humans already in existence, except the fact that they have been created directly by God and were, therefore, their children.

With Adam and Eve, God gave mankind the possibility to rise and overcome physical decay and death by accessing the spiritual realm after their existence on earth was over - thus the meaning of eating from the "tree of knowledge" and from the "tree of life". They would ultimately eat from those - but on God's chosen time, not theirs. Unfortunately, Adam and Eve wasted that gift and thus wasted it also for their descendants after them. Mankind remained without hope. Christ came to restore the "sonship" towards God by means of a redemption.

Edit: So that you know my background, I'm an active JW who happens to have a substancial amount of unorthodox positions compared to the WTS.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

prologos: You seem to imply that both evolution and direct creation are true. the prehistoric human(oids) evolved, we were a direct creation? our whole ? or just our Humanity part?

Cofty: who did humanity descend from - Adam and Eve or evolved humans?

In my scenario, modern mankind descends mostly from humans who evolved. Cain married a woman from the "others" (not his sister, not his niece); Seth probably did the same. The Bible is only concerned to tell us how the male line descends from Adam until Abraham, and from Abraham to David, and from him to Jesus Christ. It appears that as early as the second generation after Adam and Eve were already interbreeding with other Homo Sapiens that lived outside Eden. Since the "original sin" is, in my view, the loss of sonship towards God, it made no sense to keep on preserving the descendants of Adam and Eve from contact with the other humans outside Eden. The purpose of the geneology preserved in the Bible is to trace a line of heritage between the "son of God" Adam and the "Son of God/Son of man", Jesus. Since the DNA from Adam and Eve was a copy of some other Homo Sapiens, there isn't any evidence left from a separate ancestral line of DNA. We are all humans.

Eden

154

Why Eve sinned (WT 8/2013)

by EdenOne in

adamah brought up in another thread an issue i wasn't aware of, and i thought it merged well with something i've been pondering about.

it revolves around the deeper reasons why satan was successful in persuading eve to eat from the forbidden fruit.

why was eve persuaded to disobey god?.

EdenOne

Cofty,

In this scenario, after creating other beings in the spiritual realm, God kickstarted the universe and the laws that govern nature and then let it roll, sort of speaking. He is the creator in the sense of being at the origin of it all, eventually having direct intervention at several phases of the evolutionary process (that's my take on the creative activity described in the 'creative days' of Genesis).

In the course of millions of years of evolutionary process in this planet, a particularly successful species developed sufficient intelligence to rule over the planet. God took interest in this species, the Homo Sapiens, and both him and possibly other creatures in the spiritual realm began to interact with humans. Thus man began to realize the existence of a spiritual realm where divinities existed, and religion began. At some point, God must have decided that he wanted to give to humans the possibility to ascend to the spiritual realm, but they needed to be "prepared", in a way, to be made with a special spiritual bond towards God. This required the creation of a couple, in every way physically identical to the other Homo Sapiens, but that possessed this 'sonship' bond with God (the 'soul') that was absent from the other humans. In time, after this first couple would generate descendants and work to extend that special preserve, Eden, they would be given access to the spiritual realm by "eating the fruit from the tree of knowledge" and there live forever by "eating from the tree of life".

That other humans pre-existed outside Eden already can be deducted by Abel and Cain being farmers and shepherds (how did they learn farming and cattle breeding?) practising sacrifices in an altar (how did they come up with that idea?) and Cain's fear of being assassinated (by whom? - his parents?) after he was ousted from the vicinity of the garden of Eden after killing his brother.

Eden