Posts by EdenOne

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

EdenOne

humbled might have just proved me wrong on the non-interventionist view of God in modern day ...

Eden

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

I understand that many points have been addressed so far, but you keep asking me the same questions and I really have nothing else to add. I don't expect to "win" this argument with you, to convert you to christianity or anyone else for that matter. If you - or any anti-theist out there - considers their challenges still unanswered, then nothing has progressed since this thread was opened. I don't represent God in this thread, but I offered what persuades ME, and it may work for someone else, perhaps.

Eden

108

"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne in

in a recent meeting with elders, an argument was used to the effect that jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the wts must be that organization today, since god must be using one.

naturally, i know what arguments i've used to counter that argument.

but i'm interested in hearing yours.

EdenOne

Adam:

BTW, if you think you're dealing with a judicial committee who responds to well-reasoned logical arguments that are backed up by scripture and/or well-researched history, and you think you can talk them out of their power and control, then YOU in fact, are completely delusional. They could be COMPLETELY and utterly wrong, but it's their game and they also get to serve as umpire to call their own shots and get to make up the score. You're not in control; THEY are, and they might tolerate your quirkiness, but you push it too far, and you'll be DFed so fast, your head will spin and the worst part is your own family will likely be shunning you....

I couldn't agree more with you on this one; my point is that I need to persuade my family of it, not the Elders who I'm facing.

Eden

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

EdenOne

I don't know how many times I've answerd those questions, yet here it goes again, with references.

Q: Does God cause natural disasters?

A: He can do it. Bible history says he did it a few times. Also tells us that God had a purpose when he did it, usually, to bring punishment upon wrongdoers. Floods (Genesis 6:17; 7:6), volcanic activity (Genesis 19:24, 25), droughts (1 kings 17:1), famines (Amos 6:4-9; Ezekiel 14:13; Genesis 41:22-32); disease outbreaks ( 1 Samuel 5:11, 12), sinkholes (Numbers 16:32); earthquakes (1 Samuel 14:15).

Q: Does God cause all natural disasters, then?

A: No, for there are other natural disasters recorded in the Bible and God isn't credited as having anything to do with them. (Amos 1:1; Zechariah 14:5; Acs 27:14-20)

Q: Can God prevent natural disasters?

A: I have no direct biblical proof of it; yet, if God brought the universe about and is "great in power and mighty in strenght", I have to assume that he has sufficient power to do such things. (Isaiah 40:26; Matthew 8:24-26) The Bible doesn't say that God ever stopped a natural calamity from happening, though.

Q: Can God at least forewarn people of impending great natural disasters that cause massive killings, such as earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanos, floods?

A: I believe God can and does forewarn people about great natural occurrences when they are originating from him because he is in control of such events. However, he appears to use discretionary power to choose who he wants to be forewarned, usually in favor of those who acknowledge Him as God. As for impending natural disasters that he has caused, He forewarned his servants and forewarned others, if He has as objective that they repent for salvation from punishment.

Q: Can God forewarn people about natural calamities that aren't being caused by him, then?

A: The future cannot be known because it doesn't exist. God cannot know a future that doesn't exist yet. However, God can calculate with great accuracy the probable outcome of the actions of people, and he also can cause anything to happen according to His will. In this sense, He can predict the future. So, probably God can predict an earthquake, if he decides He wants to measure how much pressure is building upon the edges of the tectonic plates or seismic faults; and likewise he can predict a volcanic event, or a flood, or just about anything else, even when he's not driving it, because he can access all data he chooses to. But that only happens only if God decides he wants to know such thing. Empirically, I'd say God chooses to not know such things before hand.

Q: But didn't God have an intervention in human affairs in Bible times?

A: The Bible says He did, especially in the OT. However, little - if any - intervention is shown after Christ returned to heavens. Some miracles performed by and for the apostles can show some limited evidence of discricionary intervention of Christ in favor of the Christian congregation. But God appears to be utterly absent from these actions; and if we strictly limit the scope of these events to natural disasters, then we see none.

Q: Why doesn't God intervein more actively in human affairs, especially now?

A: God has given humans free will and free choice to decide their course in life, whether they would choose to be led by God or lead their lives alienated from God. The only times God has interfered in human affairs was to defend and protect those who were loyal to him, and punish those who posed a threat to their existence. In those instances, sometimes he caused natural disasters. But empirically, we don't see that happening anymore. Thus we can conclude that, since the resurrection of Jesus, God restrains himself from direct intervention in human affairs that may pose a limitation to the human right of free will. That includes offering miraculous protection from natural disasters, for it would influence people's opinion about God, who would then be determined, not by love, faith and hope, as it's God's will, but by sight. - 1 Corinthians 14:13

Q: Isn't that unloving and uncaring from a God that has the power and the knowledge to act, but chooses to not know and not act?

A: Only God can answer that question fully. From a Christian believer prespective, God's ways are beyond our ability to fully comprehend them and God may well have ulterior, superior motives to allow for natural calamities to harm objectively good people and not taking action to prevent it or offer an escape. If God would use his discretionary powers to protect everyone's lives from every harmful situation, people would simply take God for granted. However, for the believer and the unbeliever there is hope of salvation in a spiritual domain, after earthly life is over. For that, one only has to put faith in Christ. And as for those who never could, never knew, or never had a choice of putting faith in Christ, God will offer a 'resurrection of judgement', where these ones may prove worthy of salvation, depending on their choices. That's not at all unloving nor uncaring. Until then, God teaches us to deal with the suffering, even the suffering caused by natural disasters such as the Tsunami of 2004, and expect us to put faith in salvation as generously extended by him. After all, before Adam and Eve there was no other expectation for humans other than the completion of the circle of life, without any hope for a brighter future.

Q: Since natural disasters cause human deaths, don't they reveal a design flaw by God?

A: They are only "disasters" from a human point of view. From a natural point of view they are simply natural occurences. Arguably, there wouldn't be life as we know it if it weren't for those natural "disasters" taking place. Quite possibly, there wouldn't be intelligent life on earth. If tectonic plates didn't get stuck and built presssure against each other, there wouldn't be mountains. In turn, the planet might be eternally under water. Perhaps we might have fish, but hardly any intelligent life. in any case, to assume that there was a "design flaw", you have to assume that tectonic plates were a product of design. Were they? And, to c&p what I wrote before, p erhaps that's the acceptable trade-off for life itself to exist. There's no absolute perfection in the universe except perhaps in the very person of God. "Perfection", in the relative sense, is something being optimally adequate to its purpose or function. In this sense, our world is adequate for producing and sustaining the life, even the intelligent life we find in it, therefore, "perfect". If you can produce me a world where material intelligent life came to existence, and where tectonic plates don't cause earthquaques and tsunamis and havoc and destruction, perhaps I'll be willing to revise my position.

Eden

108

"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne in

in a recent meeting with elders, an argument was used to the effect that jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the wts must be that organization today, since god must be using one.

naturally, i know what arguments i've used to counter that argument.

but i'm interested in hearing yours.

EdenOne

Laika, as you can imagine, I'm not defending an "organization", so don't get me wrong. I'm only gathering valid arguments to counter it.

Eden

108

"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne in

in a recent meeting with elders, an argument was used to the effect that jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the wts must be that organization today, since god must be using one.

naturally, i know what arguments i've used to counter that argument.

but i'm interested in hearing yours.

EdenOne

That's actually a good point. If Israel was an "organization", how that experience turned out for God?

Eden

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

EdenOne

Cofty,

Our world may not be the "best of worlds", as Leibniz has put it, but it's the best of the feasable worlds to produce intelligent life as we know it. I wonder if a planet without moving tectonic plates (and the consequent earthquakes and tsunamis) would be able to produce and sustain life as we know it, especially intelligent life such as ours. Perhaps that's the acceptable trade-off for life itself to exist. There's no absolute perfection except perhaps in the very person of God. "Perfection", in the relative sense, is something being optimally adequate to its purpose or function. In this sense, our world is adequate for producing and sustaining the life, even the intelligent life we find in it, therefore, "perfect". If you can produce me a world where material intelligent life came to existence, and where tectonic plates don't cause earthquaques and tsunamis and havoc and destruction, perhaps I'll be willing to revise my position.

Eden

108

"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne in

in a recent meeting with elders, an argument was used to the effect that jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the wts must be that organization today, since god must be using one.

naturally, i know what arguments i've used to counter that argument.

but i'm interested in hearing yours.

EdenOne

That's a more accurate notion, Blondie. God may use an organization, but he doesn't need one. And even when he uses one, he can operate outside that organization, not exclusively through it.

Laika: Any nation is a form of organized society, therefore, an organization of sorts.

Eden

108

"Jehovah ALWAYS had/used an organization". How would you reply?

by EdenOne in

in a recent meeting with elders, an argument was used to the effect that jehovah has always [= throughout history] used, or operated through, an organization; therefore, the wts must be that organization today, since god must be using one.

naturally, i know what arguments i've used to counter that argument.

but i'm interested in hearing yours.

EdenOne

That's a line of reasoning I've used, Tim.

Unfortunately they make a fairly reasonable point that the christian congregation and ancient priesthood and kingship of Israel are forms of organization, so, while the term isn't in the Bible, the concept is. I may disagree, but it's a fair point.

Eden

46

Head of the House?

by cofty in

i often see comments by ex-jws that would suggest some men still view themselves as "head of the house".

sometimes comments from women appear to support the idea as well.. how many still see things this way or have you completely got over it?.

EdenOne

Cofty, you got a PM