EdenOne

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Posts by EdenOne

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  68

  Help needed: Written material regarding shunning of DF'd and DA'd individuals

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i would like this to become a permanent thread, because i think there are grounds - at least in europe - to take this matter up to the european court of human rights.

  not sure we'll ever get there, but one must start somewhere.

  objective: force, by legal means, the watchtower society and the jehovah's witnesses to stop the practice of shunning ex-jehovah's witnesses, on grounds that it constitutes a violation of human rights.. what is needed: all written material ever published by the watchtower society, especially since 1940's, concerning the practice of shunning.

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  EdenOne

  As for the pertinent bit of your post, why does an action taken before the European Court of Human Rights can't single out the Jehovah's Witnesses?

  Eden
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  68

  Help needed: Written material regarding shunning of DF'd and DA'd individuals

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i would like this to become a permanent thread, because i think there are grounds - at least in europe - to take this matter up to the european court of human rights.

  not sure we'll ever get there, but one must start somewhere.

  objective: force, by legal means, the watchtower society and the jehovah's witnesses to stop the practice of shunning ex-jehovah's witnesses, on grounds that it constitutes a violation of human rights.. what is needed: all written material ever published by the watchtower society, especially since 1940's, concerning the practice of shunning.

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  EdenOne

  Before you try to impress me with your TH'D, you should get your facts straight, because Catholic excommunication is different from the protestant disfellowshipping. Namely, because it only barrs an ordained member of the clerigy to officiate and the rank and file from participating in the Eucharistia. There's no shunning, no cut off from communication with others. Again, you're obscuring the discussion by attempting to mix up disfellowshipping with shunning. This discussion is about shunning alone, and how it constitutes a violation of human rights as a form of unlawful discrimination.

  Eden
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  99

  Shunned again, and you won't guess where. EVER.

  by kwintestal in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well, we were going about our business today as we usually do on a monday.

  mrs kwin went to work, kids went to school, i stayed home and made apple sauce and beer.

  2:30 comes along and it's time to pick up everyone and, oh yeah ... we have that appointment today.

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  EdenOne

  I wonder what was the outcome of this story...?

  Eden
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  68

  Help needed: Written material regarding shunning of DF'd and DA'd individuals

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i would like this to become a permanent thread, because i think there are grounds - at least in europe - to take this matter up to the european court of human rights.

  not sure we'll ever get there, but one must start somewhere.

  objective: force, by legal means, the watchtower society and the jehovah's witnesses to stop the practice of shunning ex-jehovah's witnesses, on grounds that it constitutes a violation of human rights.. what is needed: all written material ever published by the watchtower society, especially since 1940's, concerning the practice of shunning.

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  EdenOne

  For those who think that the First Ammendmend protects the right of a religion to shun ex-members because the Bible says so: let's imagine that a religion takes the OT to the letter. One of its members is caught in adultery. Since the OT prescribes death by stoning for that sin, this religion advocates the right to stone to death its member. Now, would the First Ammendment protect this action under the "freedom of religion" excuse? What is the difference regarding shunning?

  Eden
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  68

  Help needed: Written material regarding shunning of DF'd and DA'd individuals

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i would like this to become a permanent thread, because i think there are grounds - at least in europe - to take this matter up to the european court of human rights.

  not sure we'll ever get there, but one must start somewhere.

  objective: force, by legal means, the watchtower society and the jehovah's witnesses to stop the practice of shunning ex-jehovah's witnesses, on grounds that it constitutes a violation of human rights.. what is needed: all written material ever published by the watchtower society, especially since 1940's, concerning the practice of shunning.

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  EdenOne

  WheninDoubt

  Since you don't adress the issues in discussion and you're merely attempting to obscure and derail the thread with trolling tactics, you don't merit any further reply. Better count your hours for the monthly report at the expense of someone else.

  Eden
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  6

  New Portuguese rendering of John 8:58 in Revised Edition NWT

  by Wonderment in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  previous rendering of john 8:58: jesus ldisse-hes : digo-vos em toda a verdade: antes de abraao vir a existencia, eu tenho sido.. new rendering: jesus lhes disse: digo-lhes com toda a certeza: antes de abraao vir a existencia, eu ja existia.. i am calling attention to the words in bold letters.

  the previous rendering: "i have been.

  the new reading: "i already existed.

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  EdenOne

  Wonderment,

  The new text makes a lot more sense. "Eu tenho sido" [I have been] is an odd way of wording it, possibly even borderline incorrect from a grammar point of view. [Because it begs the question: I have been - what?] The new wording doesn't change anything fundamental doctrinally and the wording is by far more natural with portuguese.

  Eden
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  68

  Help needed: Written material regarding shunning of DF'd and DA'd individuals

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i would like this to become a permanent thread, because i think there are grounds - at least in europe - to take this matter up to the european court of human rights.

  not sure we'll ever get there, but one must start somewhere.

  objective: force, by legal means, the watchtower society and the jehovah's witnesses to stop the practice of shunning ex-jehovah's witnesses, on grounds that it constitutes a violation of human rights.. what is needed: all written material ever published by the watchtower society, especially since 1940's, concerning the practice of shunning.

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  EdenOne

  Whenindoubt

  To your first point: Separation of State and Church. It's funny that the issue of separation of State and Church is so promptly brought up by religious apologists such as yourself when there's even as much as a suggestion that judicial and legislative powers may force churches to simply comply with the law; all the while churches attempt to influence lawmakers and local authorities to grant them tax exemptions, introduce creationism into the teaching system, anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage laws, etc etc. The hypocrisy of it if appalling. You really should stop being so American-centered, because there's a world out there. I'm discussing the laws of Europe, which, in case you haven't noticed, it's also located on planet Earth. If you look in the world map, it's to the East of the US. Shouldn't take you long to find it. Alas, for apologists such as yourself, the First Amendment seems to be another loving provision of Jehovah against the hordes of Satan. How ironic!

  Religious organizations such as the Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses thrive by exploiting the liberties warranted by Western Democracies. Nothing intrinsically wrong with that, except when religions demand to be shielded from the full effect of the law alleging violation of "freedom of religion". Legislators in Europe aren't as condescending with religious lobbies as lawmakers in the U.S., you see. So, instead to derailing this thread with comments based on the American Constitution, I won't dignify you with an answer unless you're prepared to speak about european legislation.

  On your second point: Congratulations, you can copy and paste from biblehub.com ! Regarding the Scriptures you mentioned, after being a baptized Jehovah's Witness for nearly 30 years and an ex-Elder, you can be sure I've heard them all and every argument put forth by the Governing Body to back up their theology of disfellowshipping. Let me stress this out: The issue here is not the termination of fellowship. It's the shunning that follows, which should be ruled as unlawful and illegal. Therefore, why don't you go read with a keen eye on 2 Thessalonians 3:14, 15 - "If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of that person and do not associate with him, so that he will be put to shame.Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

  How can you 'stop associating with' and at the same time 'admonish' (which involves communication) and keep considering such person as a 'brother'? In Watchtowerism this text is used to support the practice of "marking" someone in the congregation, and it is usually stressed that it doesn't apply to disfellowshipping. This is a peculiarity of the Jehovah's Witnesses, because any Bible commentator will tell you that Paul is discussing the very same thing here as in Romans 16:17 or 1 Corinthians 5:11.

  Have you read the work of Alikin? Because if you had, you would know that "stop associating with" and "not even eating with" had to do with the way the Christian gatherings were organized in the Early church, namely the table fellowship that took place during the eucharistia portion of the Gatherings, where only the iniciated (baptized in good standing) could participate in the body and blood of Christ through table fellowship. And as for the "greeting" that John mentions, it had to do with a blessing extended as a greeting (such as "Godspeed") to a false teacher who might take advantage of the hospitality of a Christian, which John argues that might implicate the greeter as partaking in the false teachings of the false teacher. It had nothing to do with disfellowshipping for immorality, for example. Your interpretation of Scripture is skewed by your Watchtowerism. Cultivate yourself with History - read the work of Alikin that I suggested - and you'll see all the important points about the early Christian gatherings that the Organization omits, and would be very important to know.

  As for Islam, it's not my concern, as it's neither the Amish, the Mormons, Scientology ... If any of them is shunned and feels his human rights violated, he should file a complaint. At least here in Europe...on planet Earth.

  Eden
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  8

  Russell and Jehovah's Name

  by vinman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'm pretty new here.

  but i have a question.

  the kingdom rules!

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  EdenOne

  Russell wasn't shy on using the name "Jehovah"; but later it became an obsession when Rutherford needed ways to differentiate his religious group from the myriad others out there. That's when "Jehovah" became the trademark of...you know....the Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Eden
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  68

  Help needed: Written material regarding shunning of DF'd and DA'd individuals

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i would like this to become a permanent thread, because i think there are grounds - at least in europe - to take this matter up to the european court of human rights.

  not sure we'll ever get there, but one must start somewhere.

  objective: force, by legal means, the watchtower society and the jehovah's witnesses to stop the practice of shunning ex-jehovah's witnesses, on grounds that it constitutes a violation of human rights.. what is needed: all written material ever published by the watchtower society, especially since 1940's, concerning the practice of shunning.

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  EdenOne

  flamegrilled,

  I don't challenge the right that Jehovah's Witnesses' congregations have to terminate fellowship with an individual based on clear violations of clearly stated moral conduct, for example. What I don't find clear is that someone might be unilaterally disfellowshipped by holding contrary doctrinal opinions to the Governing Body, because that violates the freedom of thought and of opinion, which are protected by the European law.

  In any case, it's the shunning that I challenge. And, while any individual may choose to shun another, i challenge the policy of an institution who instructs and requests that its members practice discrimination upon former members. And why is it discrimination? Because they instruct active JW's to not even say hello to an ex-JW (they say hello to the population at large), to not engage in any sort of conversation with an ex-JW (they talk with the population at large), to not have business with an ex-JW (they conduct business with the population at large) and to not have conversations about spiritual matters with ex-JW's (they will have conversations about faith, the Bible, spiritual matters, with the population at large, even going to great lengths to contact people with their message). JW parents will stop their children to see ex-JW relatives (but they won't stop them from having contact with the population at large). JW's will stop having contact with ex-JW'relatives who don't live under the same roof (but they won't stop contact with other relatives that aren't ex-JWs). In my view, yes THIS CONSTITUTES DISCRIMINATION, and therefore, it's unlawful and must stop.

  Someone once told me: "But, if we don't shun the disfellowshipped person, the penalty of disfellowshipping loses its meaning and effectiveness!". Ah, yes, good point! But that's not MY problem, you see. That's the problem of a high control cult who needs to resort to these unlawful actions to keep the rank and file in line. Surely, if they trusted the strength of faith of their members, they would think of other ways to "terminate fellowship". But they can't, because they need it to control their members.

  Eden
• 
  68

  Help needed: Written material regarding shunning of DF'd and DA'd individuals

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i would like this to become a permanent thread, because i think there are grounds - at least in europe - to take this matter up to the european court of human rights.

  not sure we'll ever get there, but one must start somewhere.

  objective: force, by legal means, the watchtower society and the jehovah's witnesses to stop the practice of shunning ex-jehovah's witnesses, on grounds that it constitutes a violation of human rights.. what is needed: all written material ever published by the watchtower society, especially since 1940's, concerning the practice of shunning.

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  EdenOne

  WheninDoubt,

  Since you want to bring the Bible to this discussion, Mark 12:17 states that we should "give back Caesar what is Caesar's". Well, here's what "Caesar" demands:

  The European Convention of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms states:

  Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion

  1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.
  2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

  Article 10 – Freedom of expression

  1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
  2. (...)

  Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association

  1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
  2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.

  Article 14 – Prohibition of discrimination
  

  The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

  When a religious organization terminates unilaterally fellowship with an individual that exercises his right to freedom of thought and of holding opinions, and does so in a way that discriminates such individual against the general population outside that religious group (after all, Jehovah's Witnesses talk, conduct business, and discuss religious matters with the population at large, even proactively), then such religion is practicing discrimination. When a religion instructs its members to discriminate former members by shunning them, it's practicing discrimination. This is clear from the European Directive for Equal Treatment of Persons Irrespective of Religion or Belief, Disability, Age or Sexual Orientation, of 2 April 2009, #12: "Discrimination is understood to include direct and indirect discrimination, multiple discrimination, harassment, instructions to discriminate and denial of reasonable accommodation". Also, the amendment made on Article 2, paragraph 4, says: "An instruction or request, based on a hierarchical relationship, to discriminate against persons on any of the grounds referred to in article 1 shall be deemed to be discrimination within the meaning of paragraph 1". The Watchtower Society goes beyond mere instructions or request to discriminate, and enforces this policy upon its members by threatening with termination of fellowship those who refuse to stop discriminating former members.

  As for other religions, they don't concern me. If their members or ex-members feel their rights are being violated, by all means, they should take action against them. Shunning on religious grounds is a horrible way to treat others and should stop.

  As for "changing God's laws", one should first ask if we're talking about "God's laws" or human rules written in the name of God. Second, even if what's written in the Bible were to be proven to be from "God", it follows that "disfellowshipping and shunning" don't have biblical support, and are a mere human corporate interpretation of a sacred textbook, concocted to suit a certain theological agenda. The Watchtower doesn't even respect their sacred book, because they go beyond what's written in it to enforce a policy that goes against the teachings of Christ and against the laws of the land, which they are told to respect and abide to.

  Finally, if the Watchtower Society had any respect for History, then they would know that the termination of fellowship prescribed by the apostles Paul and John didn't involve shunning as prescribed by the Jehovah's Witnesses today. However, the implications of acknowledging what was involved in the termination of fellowship in the early Christian congregation contemporary to the apostolic letters would be devastating to the theology of the Jehovah's Witnesses, namely their two hopes system. For more information on this item, I advise you to read carefully Valeriy A. Alikin's excellent dissertation thesis: "The Earliest History of Christian Gathering" (2009, Leiden University).

  Last, don't be ridiculous, no one is trying to "fulfill prophecy" here. The Watchtower Society and the Jehovah's Witnesses need a reality check, and to understand they can't exist beyond and above the law. Once they stop breaking the law, we're good. Stop being delusional.

  You're so wrong on every count, WheninDoubt.

  Eden