Posts by EdenOne

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

Simon: whatever you do though please don't simply debate the debate.

Fair enough.

Eden

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

Viviane: And only get to speak for exactly one person, yourself.

Agreed. So do you.

Viviane: Anyway, you're hardly going to convince people to re-define a broad concept

You clearly miss the point of what is a “debate”. A debate is, by definition, “to discuss (something) with people whose opinions are different from your own”. That’s what we’ve been doing here. Since no one informed me that a voting will follow this debate, it seems that, of us two, only you appear to think that the purpose here is to “convince people” of something. That tells me that you have an agenda, a mission to accomplish. I, personally, don’t.

Viviane: You're asking people to assume they [know] what you mean

Not at all. First, turns out that the person who asked did it as a personal insult. Second, the sentence is in no way hard to understand. I was merely saying that radicalism is different than conviction or passion because it goes beyond ardent defense of one’s points of views versus the point of views of others; it is intolerant in nature, and attempts to uproot from other people’s minds, and from existence itself, competing or non-conforming ideas, often by violent means, going to great lengths to do so. Radicalism aims to change more than values at surface level, it demands change in the fundamental and deeper levels of human thinking, personality and will, and goes to great lengths to achieve that goal, from relentless propaganda to indoctrination to intimidation, to outright violence. Now, the person who asked knows all this, but had no interest in clarification, so his question wasn’t honest.

Viviane: until you decide to understand and clearly tell us what you are saying, no real debate or discussion can happen

No true Scotsman fallacy. We are debating and I have clearly told my ideas. For example, Ruby understood what I was trying to say, agreeing or not with it. But because I point out some things that you don’t find either convincing or convenient, you claim that this can’t be a true debate, and dismiss it.

Viviane: It's really just a lack of preparedness on your part to discuss your idea.

I admit that I’m relatively new to this side of the fence. So what? Do I have to take a Master’s degree before I can start debating any of my ideas? If I had set myself up to teach others, you might rightfully accuse me of lack of preparedness. But this is a public forum, not the academia, and you’re no Bertrand Russell either. Like I said before, I’m here to learn, but not to be lectured.

Viviane: the bad, very bad, ridiculous, silly and comical arguments you've presented here

Your resort to inflammatory, derogatory language and minimization gets tiring, but I think you do it by design, so I won’t reply to you in the same fashion. All I can say is that you’re an expert in Strawman, Red Herring, Declare Victory, Reductio ad Absurdum, use of sarcasm and patronizing techniques in debate. I really can’t compete. You win – because no other result is admissible in your way of debating.

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

Because, Cofty, with one sentence you have proven the point I had made previously:

Eden: Ridiculing the adversary from the onset instead of getting to know what he thinks and why he thinks that way is but a sign of radicalized thinking. (...) Usually they are too lazy, and it doesn't take long for the ridiculing to start. That laziness is also a sign of radicalized thinking.

And, sure enough, your next post was:

Cofty: I wonder what that sentence would sound like in English.

Followed by yet another Ad Hominem:

Cofty: stop trying to sound like Deepak Chopra.

And then playing dumb:

Cofty: I have not got a clue what that sentence is supposed to mean.

You know damn well what I meant and you're simply carrying on a tactic of subversion. At least now others can plainly see what you do. You don't merit my explanation.

Eden

29

Mystery Letters of "Human Apostate" talk 2013 summer convention and its connection to Lev.5:1

by Bill Covert in

greetings from redding calif. my name is bill covert.

i am one of those viet nam war felons for having to refuse communtiy service in lieu of military induction per direct instructions from ny, so i have been around for a while.

i am the writer of the letters mentioned in the human apostate talk of the 2013 conventions.

EdenOne

Welcome to the forum. I'll await further developments on your story and Barbara's comments too.

Eden

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

Conviction and even passion are one thing. Radicalism is a different animal altogether, because it presupposes the annihilation of its nemesis through the deep, and often cohersive change of its fundamentals. Radicalism isn't concerned with persuasion. It needs to trump, conquest, crush and vaporize any idea that doesn't fit it's tight belief system. Ridiculing the adversary from the onset instead of getting to know what he thinks and why he thinks that way is but a sign of radicalized thinking.

A prominent atheist, Ed Brayton, wrote that "ridicule may lawfully be employed where reason has no hope to success", and some in this forum seem to wholeheartedly agree with this proposition. However, they should first consider what law allows them to ridicule, and, second, if they have tried hard enough to use reason to conclude that its hopeless to keep using it. Usually they are too lazy, and it doesn't take long for the ridiculing to start. That laziness is also a sign of radicalized thinking.

Let me give you a small but tragic example of the connection between radical thinking and laziness. In Cambodja, during the Khmer Rouge regime, the government arrested, tortured and executed anyone suspected of not strictly conforming to their rules. One of those rules was that everyone should be forcefully moved to the countryside and live and work in farming communities. Professionals and intellectuals were, thus, automatically considered "enemies of the state". Anyone found requiring glasses was summarily considered a traitor, because, as the government considered, they likely spent too much time reading books instead of working. No government official would consider investigating if such person needed glasses for other sort of reason other than "reading too much and working too less". The result was execution. Radical thinking leads to lazy.

Eden

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

I am also pushing for more balanced and realistic perspectives

Radicalism of any kind results in exacerbated emotions and in vitriolic bigotry. If taken to its ultimate consequences, the result isn't good for humanity. The 20th century was an experiment in secularism, and as a result we found that evil can also rise from secularism just as it can rise from theism, perhaps even more spectacularly. All it takes is to radicalize the ideas. Just because some system of belief is firmly grounded on reason, doesn't entitle its proponents to excuse themselves from humility.

Eden

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

Ruby: I'm not against controversy but am against belief systems that are held so tightly as to be suffocating.

I think you nailed it in the head. This combination of activism, demagogy, arrogance and relentless pig-headed stiffness is derogatory to reason, and does nothing to help theists to snap out of the emotional shell regarding their belief and start using their abilities to reason. To many of them, to think they'll become like this is frightening. As you say - suffocating.

Eden

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

You've not defined it.

I'm under no obligation to define it in your terms, as I'm not here to oblige to your activism. I've given you some common traits that theists attribute to their deities. Stop asking for further definition or it becomes clear that you're debating in bad faith.

to attack atheism

Is that how you construct my threads? Attacks to atheism? In Cofty's words, you have some more thinking to do.

your arrogant and wrong attempt to tell me what I think (...) You should seriously take his advice and stop trying to tell others what they believe

Your wholesale resort to straw man arguments is tiring. I'm not telling you or any one else what you think or what you believe. You're articulate enough to be able to read and know the meaning of what I'm saying, but you simply chose to distort what I write so that you can argue against the distortion. That's below honesty. If you disagree with my opinion, that's fine. Opinions are like asses, everybody has one. As for arrogance, well, your level of contempt indicates that you really should take a good look in the mirror.

You are pretending to know what people think and how they feel, about people that you've never met, which is not an objective fact and is often only knowable AFTER talking to them

Again, you seem to be taking upon yourself to be the spokesperson for the entire body of atheists. I've met enough atheists and read enough material to be sufficiently informed about what atheism stands for. And, just in case you missed the news flash, in the other thread "Defender of Truth" pointed out, and I agreed, that "agnostic atheist" is what more closely defines my ideas nowadays. You construct what I debate as an attack on atheism, but you're wrong. I'm questioning what I perceive to be a misleading definition of what atheism is.

Eden

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

I blew my budget for e-books, and have a few still to finish. Next batch maybe.

Eden

233

What is BELIEF ?

by EdenOne in

stemming from the 'absentheism' thread, an old question came to my mind.

what exactly is "belief"?.

is it the same to ask: "do you believe in god?

EdenOne

Funny, because that's on my "to read" list, Jonathan Drake. Although it focuses more on organized religions and their part in politic lobbying than in pure theoretical theism/atheism analysis. But I'll read it with interest when I can.

Eden