As far as my view of the WTS policy in regards to child abuse you can find it here:
johnamos
JoinedPosts by johnamos
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Media request to record/broadcast oral argument; from ABC News New York
by Londo111 inhttp://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=1&doc_id=2025979&doc_no=a136641.
see last item:.
"media request to record/broadcast oral argument; from abc news new york".
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75
Media request to record/broadcast oral argument; from ABC News New York
by Londo111 inhttp://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=1&doc_id=2025979&doc_no=a136641.
see last item:.
"media request to record/broadcast oral argument; from abc news new york".
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johnamos
Are you trying to defend the Watchtower policy of refusing to assist a child who has been raped unless there was another witness to the crime?
No, I am not defending the WTS, I am just showing that the “two witnesses rule” still applies even after the “Mosaic law was cancelled”.
Why do you think there are so many cases of child abuse among Jehovah's Witnesses?
I think that there are many cases of child abuse period, and not just among Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Media request to record/broadcast oral argument; from ABC News New York
by Londo111 inhttp://appellatecases.courtinfo.ca.gov/search/case/dockets.cfm?dist=1&doc_id=2025979&doc_no=a136641.
see last item:.
"media request to record/broadcast oral argument; from abc news new york".
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johnamos
Vidqun said: The irony is that the Witnesses believe the Mosaic law was cancelled out when Jesus came, but they stubbornly insist on enforcing the "two-witness rule."
Deuteronomy 19:15 “No single witness should rise up against a man respecting any error or any sin, in the case of any sin that he may commit. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.
2 Corinthians 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to YOU. “At the mouth of two witnesses or of three every matter must be established.”
Matthew 18:16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established.
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Do you think the GB ever mentions these abuse cases directly?
by thedepressedsoul inthe title says it all, do you think that the gb will ever bring up these cases in their literature or in a talk?
i'm not talking about them just mentioning "persecution" i'm talking about actually bringing up child abuse cases and trying to justify it.. or will it just remain the elephant in the room until years have passed?.
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johnamos
The blame on the WTS is not as if parents think that they are responsible for their children, but rather that their policies allow for this to continue to happen and to go unreported.
You can rant and rave that it is because of the policies as to the reason why it continues to go unreported, but I tell that if it is not reported it is because the parents did not report it at the time they became aware, and if it continues to go unreported, then its because the parents continue not to do so.
True, they do not interefere with whomever wants to report the case to the police, but they never assure that if you do, you won't have consequences within the cong.
Your statement makes my argument… this shows that the parents can go to the police and report it from the get go, if that was what took place to begin with then it would never be an issue as to the elders reporting it or policies of the WTS.
As far as the second part of that statement having to do with “consequences within the cong” again this still falls on the parents. A good parent says, “screw whatever so-called consequences within the cong may be, my child comes first” and a bad parent says “screw my child, the congregation comes first.”
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Do you think the GB ever mentions these abuse cases directly?
by thedepressedsoul inthe title says it all, do you think that the gb will ever bring up these cases in their literature or in a talk?
i'm not talking about them just mentioning "persecution" i'm talking about actually bringing up child abuse cases and trying to justify it.. or will it just remain the elephant in the room until years have passed?.
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johnamos
When are y’all going to ever wake up and start blaming the parents of the children that have been abused??? They are the ones that are responsible for their own children, not some elder in their congregation or the GB up in NY.
There is plenty to say about the WTS/GB that is well warranted… I for one despise them (GB), the org as a whole, and those that follow them/it as their golden calf. You will get NO argument from me there, but when it comes to the policies of the WTS in regards to child abuse, there is nothing wrong with them as far as they pertain to a religious institution, which the WTS is.
It should be of no surprise that they are going to view and handle things based on what their understanding of the bible is (rather it is the correct understanding or if it is the incorrect understanding, it doesn’t matter either way here in regards to.) so policies such as two witnesses and reporting to the law where the law requires such, etc… is following the bible and the laws of the land.
It all comes down to the parents…
1 st don’t allow your child to be in a position to be alone with the individuals in which these incidents take place. (Parents make that effort when their children are older and dating making sure they always have chaperons so they don’t fornicate before getting married.)
2 nd make sure to teach your child to come to you and tell you right away if they are ever touched, etc… in anyway that falls under being sexually abused… and then it is the parents responsibility from that moment on to go straight to the police and report it… CASE CLOSED.
There is nothing wrong with the following:
If the parent went straight to the elders instead of the police then that parent should be charged right along with the molester. It is the parents that are aiding in covering up these incidents, not the elders, nor the WTS/GB. It does not matter if we feel the policies of the WTS are lacking or not, their policies have no bearing on the parent taken the actions that many here claim the elders and WTS should take.
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Need to find those Km or Wt articles encouraging all to read the old publications!
by stuckinarut2 ini have been dropping comments to a few re some classic old beliefs and teachings etc... and when asked "where did you read that, or how come you are saying such and such?
" i have replied "well, you remember we have often been told to study and research our old 'theocratic history' and 'old gems' of material?....
now though i have been challenged to prove where this has been printed!.
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johnamos
Taken from the 2004 WT library
[5-15-57 WT- 7 Those who really are growing in maturity find that familiarity with basic theocratic publications is a tremendous aid in their field ministry, enabling them to draw on a firm background of knowledge and thus to answer most of the questions they encounter in field service. Further, when they prepare a discourse for delivery at congregational meetings they do not merely rehash material that they presented in all their previous talks, but they search for further information that will make the talk really alive with sound spiritual counsel. Their zeal for knowledge may even prompt them to dig back into things that were published long before they came into the truth, expanding and deepening their understanding, and ever growing in Christian maturity.
8 Do you dig out older publications to expand and deepen your knowledge on subjects about which questions arise? Have you really studied these earlier publications? When a brother gives a talk, can you, to impress the information upon your mind further, identify the particular publication from which his points were taken? If he discusses Jesus’ earthly family, do you remember that the “Questions from Readers” section of the December 15, 1950, Watchtower told how we know that Jesus did have other brothers and sisters? When he points out that the Christian should not use profanity, do you remember that this was discussed in the article “Progress Toward Taming the Tongue,” February 15, 1951? When he tells about the different kinds of spirit creatures, namely, angels, cherubim, seraphim and the archangel, and describes their various positions, do you remember that this was considered on pages 50 to 53 of the book “The Truth Shall Make You Free”? Probably you will not remember the dates or page numbers, but do you remember the discussions? Can you use the Scripture index to find the pages? Can you explain these matters when someone questions you about them? Brothers who have a mature knowledge may even have recently looked up these subjects to refresh their memories on them before discussing them with newly interested persons.]
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THE UNITED NATIONS OF RELIGION. THE NEXT "SIGN" OF THE END.
by DATA-DOG inyep, you heard it here folks!
i have it on good authority [ an eldubs wife ] that the pope and some old codger are talking about a united nations of religion.
there is even talk of one world religion (gasp!!
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johnamos
Yep, you heard it here folks! I have it on good authority [ an Eldubs wife ] that the Pope and some old codger are talking about a UNITED NATIONS OF RELIGION. There is even talk of ONE WORLD RELIGION (gasp!!) to end the wars and crimes that stem from fanatical religious zealots! Ahhhhhhh!!!
This shows that the GB are blessed by Jeehoober and the END is close!! REPENT ALL YE DAMNED SINNERS!
DD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRK0Lx8HVU0
12-15-12 WT- In a selfish and nationalistic world, it is refreshing to find individuals who can and do look beyond national borders. Granted, overcoming prejudices can be difficult. The founder of the television network CNN, Ted Turner, comments about his work with a number of talented individuals from various nations: “Meeting with these people was an incredible experience. I came to see those from other countries not as ‘foreigners,’ but as fellow citizens of the planet. I began to view the word ‘foreign’ as pejorative and created a rule within CNN that the word could not be used either on air or in conversation around the office. Instead, the word ‘international’ was to be used.”
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012926?q=%22ted+turner%22&p=par
Ted Turner- As a philanthropist, he is known for his $1 billion gift to support the United Nations, which created the United Nations Foundation, a public charity to broaden support for the UN. Turner serves as Chairman of the United Nations Foundation board of directors.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Turner
[Albert Pike - three world wars that are necessary to bring about the One World Order.
"The First World War must be brought about in order to permit the Illuminati to overthrow the power of the Czars in Russia and of making that country a fortress of atheistic Communism. The divergences caused by the "agentur" (agents) of the Illuminati between the British and Germanic Empires will be used to foment this war. At the end of the war, Communism will be built and used in order to destroy the other governments and in order to weaken the religions."
"The Second World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences between the Fascists and the political Zionists. This war must be brought about so that Nazism is destroyed and that the political Zionism be strong enough to institute a sovereign state of Israel in Palestine. During the Second World War, International Communism must become strong enough in order to balance Christendom, which would be then restrained and held in check until the time when we would need it for the final social cataclysm."
"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time." ]
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Who would say that there is no "evil slave" besides the evil slave?
by berrygerry inquestion fit for blondie types.. happiness book:.
"19 one tactic that he has used is by encouraging the view that there is no devil or satan.
he is like a criminal who spreads the idea that a crime syndicate does not exist, thus lulling persons into a false security.".
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johnamos
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013533?q=hypothetical&p=par
The 7-15-13 WT states in the box on page 24 that there is no evil slave, that it is just a warning from Jesus to the faithful slave not to become so, basically going on to say that it is only a hypothetical. My question is…are the foolish virgins and the sluggish slave, who hid the Master’s talent also hypothetical??? i.e.….
[3-1-04 WT WHEN DOES JESUS COME?
It would not be reasonable to say, for example, that the rewarding of the faithful slave, the judgment of the foolish virgins, and the judgment of the sluggish slave, who hid the Master’s talent, will take place when Jesus “comes” at the great tribulation. That would imply that many of the anointed will be found unfaithful at that time and will thus have to be replaced.]http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2004168?q=%22It+would+not+be+reasonable+to+say%22&p=par
Also, the WTS when addressing the evil slave, calling it a hypothetical, is doing so from Matthew’s account, but my question is… in reading this same account from Luke, who is the slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line and who is the one that did not understand??? Or are they also hypothetical???
[Luke 12: 41 Then Peter said: “Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or also to all?” 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave, if his master on arriving finds him doing so! 44 I tell YOU truthfully, He will appoint him over all his belongings. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and should start to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting [him] and in an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave that understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do in line with his will will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one that did not understand and so did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few.]
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/42/12#dcv_12_41
Since I am not aware at this time rather you say if “the foolish virgins” are hypothetical or not, then I just have a few secondary questions regarding “the foolish virgins” if in fact they are not hypothetical.
According to paragraph 16 on page 7 in the July 15, 2013 WT, the bridegroom (Jesus) in the parable found at Matthew 25:1-12, has not arrived yet and does not do so until his future arrival at Matt 24:30. That being said, it becomes obvious that the ready (discreet) virgins have not yet entered into the marriage feast yet and the door is therefore not shut. My question is, according to the parable, where are the foolish virgins in proximity to the discreet virgins prior to the bridegroom’s arrival??? Who make up the discreet virgins presently??? Who make up the foolish virgins presently???
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013530?q=%22bridegroom%22&p=par
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwt/E/2013/40/25
[Matthew 25:1 “Then the kingdom of the heavens will become like ten virgins that took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were discreet. 3 For the foolish took their lamps but took no oil with them, 4 whereas the discreet took oil in their receptacles with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom was delaying, they all nodded and went to sleep. 6 Right in the middle of the night there arose a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Be on YOUR way out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and put their lamps in order. 8 The foolish said to the discreet, ‘Give us some of YOUR oil, because our lamps are about to go out.’ 9 The discreet answered with the words, ‘Perhaps there may not be quite enough for us and YOU. Be on YOUR way, instead, to those who sell it and buy for yourselves.’ 10 While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived, and the virgins that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut. 11 Afterwards the rest of the virgins also came, saying, ‘Sir, sir, open to us!’ 12 In answer he said, ‘I tell YOU the truth, I do not know YOU.’]
Endnote in regards to the 3-1-04 WT excerpt.
That footnote is stating that Jesus’ arrival pertaining to the rewarding of the faithful slave, the judgment of the foolish virgins and the sluggish slave, who hid the Master’s talent, occurred back in 1918, but now in the 7-15-13 WT, the new adjusted understanding is that the rewarding of the faithful slave, the judgment of the foolish virgins and the sluggish slave, who hid the Master’s talent was not back in 1918 but occurs at Jesus’ future coming at Matthew 24:30. My question is…since they (WTS) stated the implications of what it would mean if that rewarding/judgment where at Jesus’ future arrival, but now state that, that rewarding/judgment are indeed at Jesus’ future arrival, then what does that mean for what they said that would imply…to be more direct, does the same still apply???__________________________________________________
[11-15-14 WT- Malachi chapter 3 mentions a similar inspection of the spiritual temple, followed by a time of cleansing. (Mal. 3:1-4) How long did this inspection and cleansing work take? It extended from 1914 to the early part of 1919... In 1919 they were among those who wereappointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave”]
http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20141115/questions-from-readers/
The inspection and cleansing work did not occur back at that time, it occurs upon those that are alive and will be on hand when Armageddon arrives. (Luke 19:43,44; Isaiah 29:2-4 Luke 21:20-24; Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5)
They have to be refined and cleansed to such a degree at that time (pre-Armageddon) because they are the ones that will live on in post-Armageddon without ever having to die.
Also, the ‘faithful slave’ and the ‘wicked and sluggish slave/evil salve’ are only distinguished to be so when the master comes to settle accounts with his slaves. Before such time they are all just considered to be ‘slaves’ carrying out the work of their ‘master’. At no time prior to the master coming to settle accounts with the slaves should the slaves themselves refer to themselves as being ‘faithful slaves’ (That’s for the master to determine when he arrives.) but to the contrary, the slaves are said to say of themselves that they “are good-for-nothing slaves” during the time they are carrying out their assigned work. (Luke 17:10)
[Matthew 25:14 “For it is just as when a man, about to travel abroad, summoned slaves of his and committed to them his belongings.
19 “After a long time the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them. 20 So the one that had received five talents came forward and brought five additional talents, saying, ‘Master, you committed five talents to me; see, I gained five talents more.’
21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things. Enter into the joy of your master.’
22 Next the one that had received the two talents came forward and said, ‘Master, you committed to me two talents; see, I gained two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You were faithful over a few things. I will appoint you over many things.Enter into the joy of your master.’
24 “Finally the one that had received the one talent came forward and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be an exacting man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went off and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him, ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow?]Again, it is not determined as to the faithfulness or not of the slaves until the master arrives. It is very presumptuous for any so-called slaves to make the claim of themselves as already being ‘the faithful slaves’ before the master has even arrived.
The master does not originally appoint or give the slaves their assigned work based on having judged them for their faithfulness. The master actually judges the slaves when he arrives based upon how the salves handled the assigned work, the master will then determine as to the faithfulness of the salves. It is at that point that the salves will be judged as to being faithful or not and will be appointed over all the master’s belongings/over many things, due to them being found faithful over few things/assigned work/given food at the proper time to domestics.
↓ The following in verse 45 is not stating that an already found ‘faithful slave’ is who is appointed. It is asking the question of whom the ‘faithful slave’ is/or will end up being. (That’s for the master to determine when he arrives.) Verse 46 answers the question stating that when the master arrives and finds the slave faithfully doing his assigned work then that slave will be appointed over all the master’s belongings/over many things.
[Matthew 24:45“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings.] (Compare with Matthew 25:14-26, also read ‘EVIL SLAVE…hypothetical???’ again.)
http://johnamos880.wordpress.com/1914/10/02/httpwol-jw-orgenwoldr1lp-e302014025qoctober21914ppar/
http://johnamos880.wordpress.com/1919/03/26/httpwww-jw-orgen/
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Jehovah deceives us
by opusdei1972 inpaul said that god does not lie:.
in the hope of eternal life, which god, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time (titus 1:2).
however, jehovah god deceived his people:.
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johnamos
Moses Joe, your post is well said.
One thing thou that it seems that many do not keep in mind is they think that because of all the lies the GB are responsible for and because of the way the JW’s follow them, that this is some how evidence that they are not God’s people or that it is just another false religion claiming to be the true one.
The fact is that no matter whom out their claim to be God’s people and those whom he truly recognizing as being his people that these people are said to be being mislead and he has a problem with those that are doing the misleading and he as a problem with his people for allowing themselves to be misled because they didn’t care enough to make sure of all things to see if they were true or not. They feared man rather then God.
But God will discipline his people and set them straight and punish those that have been misleading them. This will take place in the 42 months prior to Armageddon itself. He also is aware of those that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done.
4 And Jehovah went on to say to him: “Pass through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and you must put a mark on the foreheads of the men that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the midst of it.”
2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple [sanctuary], cast it clear out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for forty-two months.
8 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “‘For the reason that YOU men have spoken untruth and YOU have visioned a lie, therefore here I am against YOU,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.” 9 And my hand has come to be against the prophets that are visioning untruth and that are divining a lie. In the intimate group of my people they will not continue on, and in the register of the house of Israel they will not be written, and to the soil of Israel they will not come; and YOU people will have to know that I am the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, 10 for the reason, yes, for the reason that they have led my people astray, saying, “There is peace!” when there is no peace, and there is one that is building a partition wall, but in vain there are those plastering it with whitewash.’
3 And I must encamp on all sides against you, and I must lay siege to you with a palisade and raise up against you siegeworks. 4 And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp. 13 And Jehovah says: “For the reason that this people have come near with their mouth, and they have glorified me merely with their lips, and they have removed their heart itself far away from me, and their fear toward me becomes men’s commandment that is being taught, 14 therefore here I am, the One that will act wonderfully again with this people, in a wonderful manner and with something wonderful; and the wisdom of their wise men must perish, and the very understanding of their discreet men will conceal itself.” 15 Woe to those who are going very deep in concealing counsel from Jehovah himself, and whose deeds have occurred in a dark place, while they say: “Who is seeing us, and who is knowing of us?” 16 The perversity of YOU men!
20 “Furthermore, when YOU see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains, and let those in the midst of her withdraw, and let those in the country places not enter into her; 22 because these are days for meting out justice, that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and the ones suckling a baby in those days! For there will be great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
23 And the nations will have to know that it was because of their error that they, the house of Israel, went into exile, on account of the fact that they behaved unfaithfully toward me, so that I concealed my face from them and gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they kept falling, all of them, by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I did with them, and I kept concealing my face from them.’
25 “Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said, ‘Now is when I shall bring back the captive ones of Jacob and actually have mercy upon all the house of Israel; and I will show exclusive devotion for my holy name. 26 And they will have borne their humiliation and all their unfaithfulness with which they have acted toward me, when they dwell on their soil in security, with no one to make [them] tremble. 27 When I bring them back from the peoples and I actually collect them together out of the lands of their enemies, I will also sanctify myself among them before the eyes of many nations.’
“For, look! in those days and in that time, when I shall bring back the captive ones of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also collect together all the nations and bring them down to the low plain of Je·hosh´a·phat; and I will put myself on judgment with them there on account of my people and my inheritance Israel, whom they scattered among the nations; and they apportioned out my own land.
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100 Years Ago Today: World War I Began - July, 28, 1914
by Oubliette in100 years since world war i07/28/14 07:44 am by timothy noah and johnny simon.
"one hundred years ago today, emperor franz josef of austria-hungary declared war on serbia in retaliation for the assassination one month earlier of his heir apparent, archduke franz ferdinand, by a serbian pan-slavic nationalist.
what might otherwise have remained a regional conflict between the dying hapsburg empire and one of its former holdings instead became, through a tangle of alliances and a global power imbalance, two world wars that began in 1914 and ended in 1945, with a 21-year intermission for the jazz age and the great depression.".
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johnamos
I think that the assassination of the Archduke and his wife was just an honest mistake that the grandfathers of these guys made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snMbKNbXiqE
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-26/franz-ferdinand-and-his-wife-sophie/5552310