Posts by Journeyman

22

I think circuit overseers should have a job like the apostle Paul

by forzaitalia in

am i being mean, thinking that travelling overseers should get a part-time job like paul did, in order to not be a burden to the congregation?

i wouldn't put my hand up when we were asked to raise it if we were happy to give £50 from congregation funds to the c.o.

so that he could take his wife out for a meal.

Journeyman

Thanks for this post, forza. I agree.

Here is a post of BoogerMan on the subject:
"Career Christians" ignore these Scriptures
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5940059249836032/career-christians-ignore-these-scriptures

And thanks to Belisem for reposting that link. Fascinating thread which reinforces the principle, and shows that the current CO arrangement is yet another area where the GB have (supposedly) aimed to "imitate the first-century Christian congregation" but got it badly wrong, with lots of dire consequences (misuse of donations, unnecessary burden placed on circuit congregations, COs and their wives thrown aside with no skills when they're removed, etc).

The problem with this that I see now is that the org would have to recruit more COs to allow for the fact that each individual would have fewer hours available to serve the congregations. That wouldn't have been a problem up until the early 2000s, when numbers of experienced brothers was ok, but with it getting harder to find men who are willing to work for this current GB, I doubt that could happen. Also, in many cities especially, the cost of living means earnings from part-time work barely cover a person's weekly expenses for food, bills, etc, so a CO would have to spend many more hours in secular work (a problem the R&F such as regular pioneers are already experiencing). And the biggest single cost for most is accommodation, but the org has been closing halls with circuit flats and selling off other residential properties.

So it's an arrangement that they could and should have put in place while it was a "favourable season", but it's now too late to start that. Another sign the org is reaping the results of flawed past decisions.

45

List of main points from 2023 AGM

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

1. doctrinal changes how new light comes about.

the gb raise questions then talk about it, unless it’s unanimous they wait, then years later talk again if it’s unanimous it then gets announced as new light.. 2. the gb are imperfect and sometimes make mistakes.

they are not to apologise or even admit they were wrong.

Journeyman

by the way let's spin Christmas as a celebration of our Lord and redemptor, and of course the Bible really hasn't a prohibition about birthdays....

I know you're only half-serious, if that (I think?) but I know what you mean. Accepting Christmas will never happen (and personally I couldn't care less about that, as it genuinely has nothing to do with Christianity), but with so many "sacred cows" of JW doctrine being 'slaughtered' by the current GB since the early 2000s, I could see a time when they make celebrating birthdays a "conscience issue" (like certain medical procedures have become) on the basis that, as you say, the Bible does not explicitly prohibit them.

That would certainly help to make JWs seem less 'weird' to outsiders, and reduce some of the alienation from non-believing family members, work colleagues, etc. They could spin it that life is a gift from God and birthdays are a celebration of another year of life, part of family and community bonding, an opportunity for an individual to reflect on their life course and think about their future, etc, etc.

There are many things that the org could declare matters of conscience or scrap altogether, because they still have lots of internal man-made rules that have no clear basis in Bible teaching.

45

List of main points from 2023 AGM

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

1. doctrinal changes how new light comes about.

the gb raise questions then talk about it, unless it’s unanimous they wait, then years later talk again if it’s unanimous it then gets announced as new light.. 2. the gb are imperfect and sometimes make mistakes.

they are not to apologise or even admit they were wrong.

Journeyman

They said get ready to begin a more hard hitting message. Even had a video about it. Then a week later. They talk about a new kinder, gentler Jehovah and Jesus that will give people an opportunity to repent during the GT. And then the no reporting hours now. So what is it?

Actually, the two are not incompatible.

Remember the account of Jonah. God gave him the commission to give a judgment message to the Ninevites. He went (eventually) and did that, and to his surprise they listened and repented. He was annoyed about that, but God accepted their repentance.

So the preaching message might "toughen up" into a judgment message, but that does not mean that God is not open to "pardoning the error" of those who listen.

With the "no reporting" change - if the org had been following the Christian model properly from the start, that should always have been the case:
1) The Christian ministry is supposed to be about people and their experiences not hours and numbers
2) It's also supposed to be about being motivated "from the heart" to preach, not prodded by numbers for productivity, or competition for position
3) it sorts out who is doing it out of genuine belief and interest - anyone not really motivated or who doesn't believe it will stop or ease off now, and that's for the best all round.

As for "leave the judgment to Jehovah and Jesus" message, that's also how it should have been if the org had really been following Christian principles from the start (rather than throwing shade at anyone who is not already a baptised Witness, which has been common behaviour in many congregations).

The bit of this meeting programme that intrigues me more is what BluesBrother highlighted.

In my opinion, the GB are entirely right (albeit very late) to say explicitly that only Jehovah God and Jesus can determine who is resurrected. [Assuming the viewpoint that one believes all this in the first place, as the GB supposedly do.]

But it opens a huge can of worms on a similar, but perhaps even more important point that challenges the GB's very own self-proclaimed status. To extend BluesBrother's quote from Splane:

"We shouldn’t be dogmatic about who will and who won’t be resurrected" ... to heaven

I have always thought it arrogant to assume that individuals who say they are anointed are definitely in heaven once they've died. For decades, the org has said things like "So-and-So .... has received their heavenly reward"

If the GB are now openly acknowledging that only Jehovah and Jesus determine who will be resurrected to earth, surely the same is true regarding who is resurrected to a heavenly place [given that JW teaching is that not all go to heaven, of course]?

They have already recently spelled out clearly (in an attempt to explain the surge in partakers) that a person "believing sincerely" that they are anointed is not proof they are actually anointed (although that somewhat undermines Romans 8:16). Coupled with this "clarification", that openly calls into question the organisation's assumption that every member of the GB past and present - and various faithful 20th Century oldtimers - are guaranteed a place in heaven

If it's "above their pay grade" to decide about the earthly resurrection, surely it's even moreso with the heavenly resurrection?

21

With no reporting necessary do they still need a territory guy?

by carla in

now that they no longer have to report hours do they still need a territory guy?

maps?

etc...?.

Journeyman

I don't see it will make any difference to the need to have a territory servant, use maps, etc - unless there are more changes to come.

However, I agree with Teddnzo that removing the need to report will dramatically reduce the amount of ministry that publishers do, and that in turn will mean maps go for much longer without being completed.

From my experience, congregations are already going through their maps much more slowly since the return to house-to-house work, and this announcement about ending reporting for most publishers must surely make that worse.

176

No more REPORTING field service!!!!!!!!!

by BoogerMan in

this is going to break the hearts of a lot of uber-jw's!

reddit has now removed the video link of samuel herd telling jw's they will no longer have to report time or placements - just tick a box which says "active.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akdshyx79rm&t=13s.

Journeyman

"Regardless of how this will be spun in J.W land, the reason can only be a coverup of poor statistics, instead of having to show a poor yearly report, they can now say we no longer collect the data."

This is a good point. It's a standard tactic of governments and other corporations around the world, too. Deliberately stop collecting data on subjects you find 'awkward' or you want to ignore, then if anyone challenges you, you can just claim "we don't know and can't comment on that as we don't have the data".

It's a trick, for example, that the UK government have started using now that they have reduced the amount of data they collect about ethnicity in the UK population census, so that there is plausible deniability over concerns about mass immigration. Up until a number of years ago, the census used to collect very specific information on how people identified themselves (racial/ethnic background, etc) and the resulting nationwide stats were available to see and download from the GOV.UK website. But now, they've reduced the amount of info they collect about ethnic background, to obfuscate the scale of immigration in British towns and cities.

It seems the org is doing something similar to avoid having to confront the degree of visible decline in the house-to-house work and other forms of ministry. If you don't have the numbers in the first place, then there's no hard evidence of a problem for you to have to explain to critics!

176

No more REPORTING field service!!!!!!!!!

by BoogerMan in

this is going to break the hearts of a lot of uber-jw's!

reddit has now removed the video link of samuel herd telling jw's they will no longer have to report time or placements - just tick a box which says "active.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akdshyx79rm&t=13s.

Journeyman

Very interesting. They've finally removed the unscriptural requirement for everyone to report time and numbers of placements.

Of course, I'm sure it's nothing to do with wanting to make the ministry more like the Christian ministry that Jesus established, and remove a burden on the brothers and sisters - more likely just because the number of hours and placements that the average publisher reports each month has fallen to disappointingly low levels.

And if anyone needed yet another incentive NOT to pioneer, this is it. Yes, why not enter the full-time service, and continue having to report hours and studies every single month! Or... you could just not bother, and you'll never have to report stats again! Woohoo! They really haven't thought that one through...

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

Don't jump to conclusions, ladies and gentleman. Lloyd will soon be releasing his videos on his first tattoo and the rendezvous with the Hare Krishnas in the forest and this will bring the 30 lost patrons back.

Of course. I was forgetting the massive inked exHK community out there! They'll be thrilled to sign up. Especially the many who are into scuba-diving in Thailand. Our boy is just the content creator they're looking for.

Meanwhile, he's taken immediate action on Twitter/X today - he's posted another comment about Star Wars.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

So it's 9pm GMT/UTC and 11pm in Croatia, that's 2pm PST for Patreon.

His September Patreon number seems to have settled at 456 (no doubt it might put on a couple in the first few days of the month, as we've seen before).

However, even if there are a few new additions, he's still losing around 20-30 patrons a month and on track to be back at his lowest level (around 387) by the end of the year, with all gains from his begging video in April lost by January.

That will be quite an achievement: Gain more than 200 subscribers, then lose them all in 8 months through sheer laziness and complacency! 🤣

47

Retirement savings

by TxNVSue2023 in

what's the current jw stance on retirement savings?

i know it changed.

pre1975 it was an attitude of "don't worry about retirement, this system is ending soon".

Journeyman

Wow, you must be out a long time because the JW religion is still against college/careers and also preparing for the future!

To be fair, for a while after 1975 and into the 1980s, the Society was more 'balanced' (to use a favourite expression of theirs) about savings and financial planning. Since then they've made fewer comments about it, although there was one Awake in 2011 that mentions savings, and even the possibility of what they call "legitimate debt" - a loan for a specific practical reason. I posted on another thread here a few months ago about that.

There's also this Awake article from 1998 about planning what to do with your estate at death (remove the b from borg): https://wol.jw.borg/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101998890
(Amazingly, leaving "valuable things" to the org is only briefly mentioned - you can tell this was written before the current GB took over in the 2000s!)

They sometimes do advocate saving, cutting unnecessary expenditure and being careful of scams and get-rich-quick schemes. All fair enough. It seems they touch on this subject much less these days, but at least they're not critical of them.

One thing they don't of course mention though, and that they are still negative about, is seeking more money to put away while of working age, by getting promotion or a better-paid job. That bit hasn't changed! And they're still against university education.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

"Cumming Soon - Lloyd Evans: Only Fans"

Oh please, no! Don't even joke about that. It might give him ideas...

Incidentally, I came across a verse from Lloyd's favourite book the other day:

"Do not rush into a legal dispute, for what will you do later if your neighbour humiliates you?"
(Proverbs 25:8, NWT)

"Do not bring hastily to court, for what will you do in the end if your neighbour puts you to shame?"
(Proverbs 25:8, NIV)

I guess the Bible can get things right sometimes, eh, Lloydy-boy?