Posts by Journeyman

2952

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Seeing this thread about this assclown finally slow down and almost die, just warms my heart.

Hah! Don't you realise that posting that comment has revived this thread again?

You won't catch me making that same mistake!

Oh. Wait...

42

New meeting format

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

just watched november broadcast very different order to the leaked agm .

be good if someone did a deep dive on the difference and why the changes?

i didn’t time the items but it should be easy to see if edited?.

So basically, this new brochure is yet another replacement for the instruction/teaching book to be used in the Theocratic Ministry School/school/Apply Yourself/whateveritscalled item, that is being tinkered about with again.

What a confusing mess! They've changed this part and the accompanying 'instructions' so many times in recent years, it's a joke.

Let me see if I can remember them all.

Before the 2000s, we had the Theocratic Ministry School Guidebook, a small 192-page maroon-covered book which had been in use for about 20 years in the old TMS as I recall.

Then in about 2001 it was replaced with Benefit From Theocratic Ministry School Education ("the Benefit book" as it was usually called, which to any British people of a certain age, sounds like a payment book for getting government financial assistance!) - a large format book of 280+ pages.

Later, when they scrapped the official "School", they replaced that book with Apply Yourself to Reading and Teaching, a much cut-down (and dumbed down) booklet of only 24 pages and 20 topics, with lots of white space to pad out the text, which consisted of simplistic advice like:

"To determine what a person might be interested in, observe his or her activities or surroundings. Begin a conversation by asking a question or making a brief comment about those things."

Did the GB think that publishers enrolled on the 'school' had never talked to anyone before?

To be fair, both the original TMS Guidebook and the Benefit book actually had good, varied and fairly in-depth advice on presentation, speaking and so on. But that all went out of the window once the original Theocratic Ministry School was scrapped in favour of the current arrangement that noone really knows how to refer to (most Witnesses, including elders and even the one assigned to 'oversee' the arrangement still call it the "school", even though the Org has clearly steered away from that word, probably out of fear of liability).

I'm pretty sure there was something else printed in between too, but I might be getting mixed up with when the org switched from hardback books to cheap, paperback versions and took the chance to revise and rewrite some of the content in their (ever-changing) publications.

And now... tadaaa! Yet another publication for guidance on how to talk to others.

Strangely, Jesus didn't need to produce a handbook for the disciples on how to sound genuine and convincing in speaking about their faith. And he certainly didn't need to keep changing and reprinting his advice every few years!

63

Leaked. Nov 6th Secret Boxes

by Beth Sarim in

jw
friends

self-aware npc has an upload that the ""top-secret"' elders only secret boxes is a drum roll here......a new brochure.....ta dahhhh🤪.

i mean how more dramatic can we get..

Journeyman

I heard a conversation the other day in which an elder was speculating that there could be a sudden rush of people coming into the org just before the end, based on what has been said recently at the Annual Meeting, etc.

The problem with this theory is that:

1) it completely contradicts what the org has been saying for decades that there would be no "mass conversion" at the last minute (although let's face it, the org has been doing a 180° turn on lots of long-held teachings lately)

2) Perhaps more importantly, it seems to contradict what Jesus said at Matthew 24, that the "conclusion of the system of things" would be like the "days of Noah" when people were "eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage" and that they "took no note" until it was too late. If that really is how the "end" would be, then there can be no last minute mass conversion.

A final thought - with all the dumbing down and simplifying in the org, if there were to be a sudden last minute conversion, they would be far less able to cope with it, with fewer Halls, fewer appointed men to take the lead, and hardly any Witnesses capable to taking 'productive' Bible studies these days.

Can you imagine if hordes of people were begging for Bible studies? In wealthy, Western countries at least, the JWLite publishers of today would be overwhelmed and wouldn't know what to do! Not like the "old school" publishers (who used to be desperate for studies, and many of them prepared and prayed constantly for them!)

83

Thought on “0 hours” reporting

by FFGhost in

so everyone knows the “big news” of this past weekend, no more reporting of hours, placements, return visits, etc.

beginning november 1, jws just tick a box indicating whether they “shared in any form of the ministry during the month”.. so there was a brief comment by a redditor that seems like a brief joke “throwaway comment” but after thinking about it….why not?.

the idea is, what is “any form of the ministry”?

Journeyman

I do remember a time when that liberal view of Ministry was the thing but it didn’t last long .

Yes, I remember the org used to talk a lot about there being two forms of ministry: the field service, and the "internal ministry", the latter being caring for the elderly, shepherding visits, encouraging fellow Witnesses who were ill, needed help, etc.

In recent years they've used that phrase less but it has still appeared sometimes.

But they've not considered it something that could be counted on reports. In fact, many pioneers used to joke with other publishers while on field service (especially to a newly baptised one, for example) things like: "I would chat with you/study with you/etc but I can't count the time!"

I wonder if this change of wording and the ambiguous design of the form is leaving the way open for full-time Witnesses to count all types of ministry (including "internal ministry") in future? It would be a big change and an about-face from the past, but given recent big changes that wouldn't be a surprise anymore.

I would imagine it could particularly apply to pioneer elders, COs, etc. They could justify it by indicating the example of Paul, and that at least as much of his time was spent building up and encouraging the congregations as preaching to outsiders, and that it's all valuable use of time in spiritual interests, etc, etc. A case could easily be made for it.

5

India Bomb Blast Suspect's Claims Are False And Misleading, Say Jehovah's Witnesses

by Tahoe in

https://www.ibtimes.com/india-bomb-blast-suspects-claims-are-false-misleading-say-jehovahs-witnesses-3717518 .

key points.

three separate blasts ripped through a gathering of jehovah's witnesses last sunday.

Journeyman

I could never defend someone who plants a bomb, goes on a gun rampage or any other such mass killing, regardless of the organisation - Scientology, Moonies, whoever.

There is no excuse for mass murder, and this man, like the one in Hamburg earlier this year, sounds as if he is at least slightly unhinged.

But there's unpleasant truth here about India.

The JW website says the Witnesses have been the target of some religious intolerance in that country. However, religious violence in general has been on the increase for a while in India, blamed by many on the ruling BJP party who have promoted Hindu nationalism, leading to attacks on people of other faiths. Not surprisingly, JWs (as a minor Christian offshoot, and whose teaching inevitably make them stand out) would be among those targeted by some nutters sometimes. So JWs are not unique in suffering for their beliefs there.

As some have said, organised religion is certainly coming under attack (literally and metaphorically). Whether that is a precursor to Armageddon, as JWs would say, or simply a reflection of greater division and intolerance as cultures and generations collide, remains to be seen.

Organised religion is coming to an end

One way or another - whether by the hand of God or simply by the secularisation of man - I do agree with that.

2952

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

I'm guessing someone managed to snag his username/handle/tag

Looks like it to me too. I'm not normally one to approve of nefarious online activity, but that's hilarious!

A new letter from the court!

Exciting stuff. Hopefully it's from the judge, telling him that what he's submitted so far is nonsense and he'd better come up with something better or expect to have the whole thing thrown out.

This is the saga that just goes on and on. Like a soap opera or sitcom that's long overstayed its welcome, but that viewers just can't help but dip into, amazed that the script is still being written and the central actor is still there giving the same old performance!

"James Evanston" really doesn't know when to cut his losses and move on! 🤣

20

Noah + new understanding

by dothemath in

so they mentioned noah couldn’t have preached to all the population back before the flood.

do you think they might start using common sense regarding not being able to get every animal type on the ark from the whole world?.

maybe the poor sloth from south america didn’t have to crawl all the way?

Journeyman

Ah, I guessed it wouldn't be long before cofty would see this thread and be along, proselytising for evolution! 🤣

(Edited to add: I was not the one who Disliked cofty's comment, in case anyone's wondering. I am not intending to be rude, just making a cheeky observation! I rarely use the Dislike, only if I find a comment really inappropriate or unnecessary.)

20

Noah + new understanding

by dothemath in

so they mentioned noah couldn’t have preached to all the population back before the flood.

do you think they might start using common sense regarding not being able to get every animal type on the ark from the whole world?.

maybe the poor sloth from south america didn’t have to crawl all the way?

Journeyman

the way I see it, If one accepts the creator, there wouldn't be any issue with the creator seeing to it that all the animals got on board, because if he can make them, he can put them on a boat!

Agreed.

Also, don't forget that although they reject macroevolution, they don't reject adaptation and speciation.

Therefore, they do not teach that "every animal type" from "the whole world" was necessarily on the ark.

Noah wouldn't have had to have every single different type of bird, mammal, reptile, etc, on board, just ones which are key parental genotypes, which could spread out and adapt to their new environments over successive generations. Hence, variation within species would still develop over time and in localised regions. (Noah wouldn't know this, or which ones who be genetically suitable, but God would.)

83

Thought on “0 hours” reporting

by FFGhost in

so everyone knows the “big news” of this past weekend, no more reporting of hours, placements, return visits, etc.

beginning november 1, jws just tick a box indicating whether they “shared in any form of the ministry during the month”.. so there was a brief comment by a redditor that seems like a brief joke “throwaway comment” but after thinking about it….why not?.

the idea is, what is “any form of the ministry”?

Journeyman

I agree with Vidiot. The org depends on the idea of being "God’s Exclusive Earthly Organization" for at least three reasons:

it's their theocratic understanding of the Bible - that only one, small body of people has been selected by God, in opposition to the majority of religion which is in Satan's control;
it's the only way they can maintain control, especially as they are now having to admit they do not have any special 'revelation' or 'powers' directly from God;
it's the only way they can attract new members, by appearing to offer something special and different.

Therefore, there are some 'red lines' that they really cannot cross due to their fundamental teachings and their need to 'stand out'. Otherwise, they'd become just like any other supposedly Christian splinter group.

Appointing women as elders is one such red line. It just will not happen.

However, they might create a sort of 'administration' role for women - a cut-down version of the ministerial servant role perhaps - so that they can do things like literature, accounts, platform, and so on, but NOT teaching to the congregation. I can't see they'll ever change that.

Where I do agree with dropoffyourkeylee though, is that removing the reporting of hours helps to lower the bar to find men to appoint. That's an important factor in trying to ensure the survival of the org in the short-to-medium term, as it is losing young men (and older ones who are burning out).

So that's a third probable reason we've worked out for this sudden reversal of decades of reporting hours:

To hide the drop in overall numbers and hours in most parts of the world;
To make it easier to appoint men;
To reduce the cost of printing and distributing physical literature.

83

Thought on “0 hours” reporting

by FFGhost in

so everyone knows the “big news” of this past weekend, no more reporting of hours, placements, return visits, etc.

beginning november 1, jws just tick a box indicating whether they “shared in any form of the ministry during the month”.. so there was a brief comment by a redditor that seems like a brief joke “throwaway comment” but after thinking about it….why not?.

the idea is, what is “any form of the ministry”?

Journeyman

The only option in the list Vidiot provides that I find credible is "the Org's dwindling numbers".

…attempting to reduce responsibility/liability for bad shit that happens in the door-to-door ministry…

Unlikely. They still require, and 'train' publishers for, door-to-door ministry.

…prolific door-to-door records aren’t really required anymore for tax-exemption…

Again, unlikely. They stopped door-to-door records in the EU zone due to GDPR some years ago, but still required reporting of hours and placements.

…too many nonJWs know too much and are able to make the witnessing super-uncomfortable…

See the first point. They still require publishers to engage in ministry, and door-to-door is still part of that. In fact, if anything in recent years they've been emphasising more talking to people and starting Bible studies rather than just placing literature, which would actually make you more likely to encounter knowledgeable 'opposers'

But that leads me to think of another possible reason, which is money-related:
Reducing costs of physical literature (maybe even phasing it out altogether eventually).

Along with removing the need for ordinary publishers to report hours, they've also removed the need for anyone to report numbers of placements. So they've basically cleverly axed the need to use any printed literature at all. You can witness 'equally' with just an electronic device, and sending PDFs or links to the public and your Bible studies (if you have any). You'll never have to handle a tract or magazine again if you don't want to, yet you can still report ministry and pioneer!