Posts by Journeyman

6

77 years ago today, Watchtower admits 'they were truly supporting the war effort' in Australia

by was a new boy in

other commercial enterprises were opened up under the.

direction of those at the branch office, and the brethren.

were asked to operate sawmills, bakeries, numerous farms.

Journeyman

You raise some interesting questions there, but the very fact there was an apology and a Resolution making a "confession" is amazing in itself - a stark contrast to the GB of today (and recent years)!

Can anyone seriously imagine any member of the current GB standing up and reading a Resolution seeking Jehovah's forgiveness for any errors within the organisation? Or printing such in a Watchtower article (or today's equivalent - making a statement from behind that fancy desk at JW HQ on a monthly broadcast?)

That JW vs JW clip shows that it's not just that someone may "err", but what compounds the error is when they stubbornly refuse to change their way, and then even if forced to change later, they will deflect away from the need for any apology or admission of guilt to phrases like "it's a refinement", and worse, tacitly blame God for it by saying things like "Jehovah was guiding one way previously, but now he has directed us differently".

It reminds me of the very same way in which the leaders of the Biblical nation of Israel often behaved, and God called them "stiff-necked" and "hard-hearted", and indicated that they themselves were often to blame for the suffering of their own people and for the attacks on them carried out by other nations, as He withdrew His protection due to their disobedience and attitude.

Likewise today, much of the ridicule JWs endure, and the "persecution" at the hands of governments, is because of policies the GB choose to enforce, many of which are not scripturally required.

For example, while not taking up arms is a Christian stance, there is no need to refuse alternatives to military service, yet in many cases the GB has insisted brothers and sisters not even do civilian duties. This has brought Witnesses in many countries into unnecessary conflict with governments and law courts over decades.

And now, much of the suspicion and negativity aimed at Witnesses is due to the secrecy of the GB regarding sexual offences, financial irregularities and other crimes and misdemeanours which they have allowed to build up over the years, when they could and should have lanced these boils of corruption and sin ages ago, made public confession and cleaned up the organisation.

Yet still they double down on being God's only representative on earth, and His only "faithful and discreet" servant, who must be listened to and obeyed without question.

88

Who Was The Biggest Jackass Circuit Overseer You Ever Met?

by Sea Breeze in

there was on older white-haired circuit overseer in houston around 1989 or 1990. last name started with a w i think.... not sure though.

even the most brain-dead robotic elders told me he was offensive.

.

Journeyman

UK Circuit Overseers who were jackasses, hmm. I have a long list.

ukpimo, I came here looking for one name for sure - and found it: Mike Purbrick!

I knew someone would list him among the worst UK COs. I've never known someone so universally hated - and for good reason, he really was full of himself. Yes, a very good speaker from the platform, but in person he came across so arrogant and condescending.

Surprised to see Anton Irons and Michael Spurr in the list though. They seemed to me to be decent enough. I also knew a few others listed there, but not well enough to make too much of an assessment of their character. Most COs were rather anonymous, bland men to me, and their wives virtually invisible.

14

2024 Pioneer Manual!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

they are calling this the 2024 pioneer book.

it was actually printed in september of 2023, but that will be alright.

click the 3 white dots at the top right to download.. .

Journeyman

Seeing this latest edition reminds me of how much the PS, like lots of other things, has been dumbed down.

When I went to the School in the 1990s, the programme was two weeks long and consisted of at least one opportunity to actually go out on the ministry. As I understand it, it has now been cut to only a week, and there is no 'practical' exercise of going on the ministry during the School.

Also, comparing the first topics on Day 1 tells you a lot about how they've shifted the emphasis.

I dug out my old School book and the first two units included:

Getting acquainted more intimately with Jehovah as a person
Pursuing the way of love
Showing personal interest in others

However, the Day 1 programme in this latest edition consists of:

Fortify Your Relationship With Jehovah
Using the New World Translation
Keep Pace With Spiritual Enlightenment

So the emphasis is more on organisation-specific stuff, and on learning to put up with constant changes in the org! All that woolly Christian stuff about "the way of love" (gone completely from the new book) and "personal interest in others" (much later in the programme) have been replaced by clearly much more important points, like these two in the "Keep pace" section:

How does our refined understanding of the faithful slave affect you personally?
How do doctrinal refinements build your faith and confidence in Jehovah and his organization?

They've also reduced the content on Jesus from two chapters ("Jesus Christ - The Way, The Truth, The Life" and "Follow Jesus as a model" - nine pages of text in total) to one ("Appreciate Jesus’ Role" - four pages).

Who are they kidding?

21

New ministry, you don’t give a witness

by Mikejw in

there are assignments on the life and ministry school now where they are suggested to just talk to people without giving a witness.. they are supposed to practice starting conversations with strangers and listening to them to talk about whatever they want to talk about .

there is an assignment this week where the conversation ends without giving a witness.

jws don’t look like jws anymore and now they don’t actually preach.. you could get bearded men with sweaters or other such tops and women in pants or slacks coming upto you in the park or on the street and starting a conversation with you.. then you hear them listening to you and talking about whatever they think that you wanted to talk about .

Journeyman

It's quite ironic having this thread and the one about the latest edition of the Pioneer School manual around at the same time.

The contrast between the oft-stated PS theme scripture “Fully accomplish your ministry” (2 Tim 4:5) and the increasingly dumbed-down introduction ideas at the midweek meeting couldn't be more stark!

And given how often the org used to use the example of Jesus talking to the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4 on how to informally witness, that also makes this current trend for "just making conversation" look silly. Can you imagine Jesus, after saying "Give me a drink", just saying something like "Thanks. Have a nice day!" and walking off, reasoning "Well, I'll just make a friend of her first, maybe I'll mention something spiritual the third or fourth time I see her." Crazy. Defeats the whole point of the supposed purpose and urgency of the Christian ministry.

Life-saving work? Talk illustrations comparing the ministry to warning neighbours about an impending earthquake or tornado and helping them to evacuate a danger zone? Nope - not any more! And yet the end is supposed to be that much closer now. We're allegedly in "the final part of the final part of the last days, shortly before the last day of the last days", so we were told. Doesn't that make the warning work more urgent? There's not even any pretence at logic to any of this anymore.

44

Branch dedication London

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

i’ve been invited to the dedication at chelmsford.. it’s crazy here, several thousand ex bethelites here for lots of events.

all hotels booked.

big marquee.

Journeyman

The celebrations are massively over the top and demonstrate the hierarchical setup of the organisation.

There's so much hype around this event, it's like a "worldly" corporate exercise (because it is one).

I was in a conversation with a couple of brothers the other day, one of whom has been a remote Bethel worker for some time until recently, and he said that the dedication is happening now because the site is finally complete, the "museum" having only been finished recently.

However, I said "surely if a building is being used for spiritual activity to Jehovah, it should have been dedicated first?" Given that the Chelmsford branch has already been in use for - what is it now, 3+ years - then this should have happened a long time ago? All I got was the repeated comment that "everything has to be completed first before you can have a dedication" - even if it means you've already started 'spiritual' activities in the rest of the complex long beforehand.

That doesn't seem to be the scriptural precedent from the temple in Solomon's day at 1 Kings and 2 Chronicles , for example.

Surely, if it's so important to have a dedication to God, then that should take place BEFORE you start using ANY of the facility for His worship? My question fell upon deaf ears and the subject quickly moved to something else...

Since the unceremonious ditching of the Mill Hill complex after decades of hype about how vital it was in Jehovah's service, etc (and of course the same happening with the Brooklyn HQ), the sudden change to a completely new site made it impossible for me to view any new location with the "reverence" that seems to be expected - and rightly so, really: these are just buildings.

The scriptures show the more modest attitude a Christian should have towards the buildings they use:

Jesus' words at Luke 21:5,6: "Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, he said: "As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down."

Acts 17:24: "The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples..."

And the account of the woman at the well in John 4:21-24 also shows Jesus emphasising that the physical location of worship is not what matters to a spiritual person - or to God.

Yet as is often the case, the JW org goes beyond what is written and falls into excessive worship of their physical assets (while at the same time, condemning Babylon the Great for doing the same with their holy sites).

The more practical aspect of this dedication programme which is also crazy, is that hundreds of Witnesses are being forced to pack into their Kingdom Halls this weekend to watch a streamed programme from the branch, which they could just as easily watch over Zoom from home.

"A three hour bladder marathon", indeed! 🤣

I bet we will see a drop in meeting attendance across the country for the next fortnight or so, as the number of people catching colds, flu, COVID, etc, increases due to the packed attendance this weekend. That already seems to happen after every circuit or regional assembly these days!

2963

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

I'm with slim and Tonus. LE is too self-centred and too set on pursuing his own pleasure and desires to be seriously suicidal. Although I'm no expert on the subject, and it's by no means 100% guaranteed, generally those who talk loudest about suicidal tendencies are not the most likely to actually do it.

The "mental health crisis" he claims to experience now and then seems most likely to be the result of wrestling with guilt (trying to suppress the warnings of the conscience), uncertainty about his future (when he sees his comfortable assumptions and self-assurances unfulfilled) and seeing the unsettling consequences of his previous words and actions coming back to haunt him.

47

SECRET RECORDING 14TH APRIL:RALPH WALLS: MORE CHANGES ARE COMING!

by raymond frantz in

secret recording 14th april:ralph walls: more changes are coming!.

( broadcasted to all british congregations today).

https://youtu.be/owg4bqj7pd0?si=yvfpkkos_qoy9u10.

Journeyman

It's saying that if God chooses to destroy you, you can just regenerate yourself back to existence. What an absurd idea.

Indeed, and that's at the heart of it. "Immortality" is nothing to do with having life separate from God, but rather, having the guarantee of life precisely because one's relationship with God is so close that He promises to sustain it forever. Remember, only God has the "source of life".

Creatures can only sustain their own life by God's permission. If He wishes to sustain an individual, they can survive despite lack of food or water, or in the most hostile conditions. Think of Israel in the wilderness, Daniel and his companions in the fire, Jonah in the big fish, and so on. In contrast, without God's permission of life, even the most healthy and well-supported individuals will die - as Adam and Eve discovered (and Satan and the unfaithful angels face in future).

Jesus is immortal, not because of his own inherent ability to let himself live separately from God, but because of his Father's promise and intention never to remove life from his Son or allow him to lose it ever again. This, in turn, is based on the Father's confidence that the Son will never do anything that is deserving of death, due to Jesus having already proved supremely faithful - in other words, he has proved he will never do any act of disloyalty or rebellion that will draw him away from the Father (since drawing away from God is itself what leads to death, as Adam and Eve found).

That reward is also given to the anointed kings and priests in heaven, Christ's brothers, when they receive their crown. (1 Pet 1:4, 1 Cor 15:50-55)

Eventually it will extend to all those described in John 6:53, the ones faithful and loyal enough to be accepted "into God's rest" at the end, who will by then have all proved themselves loyal beyond doubt.

11

Children dumped at ministry group

by Mikejw in

jw
friends

it’s not right for children to be forced to come to ministry groups on their own without their parents.

the parents just expect others to look after them.. we have this happening at our group all the time.

early teens and even younger.. the parents just want them out of the house for a bit and put the burden on others to look after them and get them home safely.. there should be an announcement or something that youths need to be accompanied by a responsible adult and not just dumped at the group on their own.. who is supposed to look after them?.

Journeyman

I've never heard of this happening in all the time I've been in and around the congregations, but then I live in a major city and no Witness parents would allow their underaged kid to go to ministry group alone especially when they are already paranoid enough about the evils of the "World".

If they want their kid to go with another publisher, they would either take them to the group (and usually work from there too themselves but with someone else, to get a break from the child) or arrange for the publisher to meet the kid at home and collect them (though that's much rarer).

And frankly, with events like this happening more often lately, I can't fault them for being more cautious:

Hainault: What we know about London sword attack
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68927702

29

Why does it matter whether or not Armageddon is near?

by TxNVSue2023 in

why does it matter whether or not the end of the world ( (armageddon) is near?

if it was next week, next year, next decade, next century?

what is to be gained by knowing how close or far it is?

Journeyman

Broadly speaking, I agree with TxNVSue2023.

To be a Christian, there is no need to know when Armageddon is coming. In fact, Jesus made it clear we would NOT know and should not expect to. It's one of many things the Org has got all messed up for decades, and even now when they claim they are no longer looking for dates, the evidence of their talks and behaviour (for example the Lett comments about being in the final hours of the final day of the last days) show otherwise.

They are still unnecessarily feeding the rank and file's view that Armageddon is "just around the corner" and that is why they should not give up now, not stop, etc. Rather than emphasise that whether Armageddon comes in "my" or "your" lifetime or not, living according to God's standards is intrinsically worthwhile in itself - not that we are working to an end date. That almost guarantees you are setting people up for disappointment and disillusionment.

He will decide who will & will not be part of the new world.

Again, absolutely right, and this has always been the case, whether humans (including the JW org) have chosen to recognise it or not. It's a self-evident truth that if Armageddon and the coming new world are in God's power, and the power over life and death are also, then the one who determines who lives or dies is Him (and whoever he chooses to give that power to - His Son).

For anyone to say this one dies or that one lives ahead of that is simply arrogance and assuming auithority that doesn't belong to them. It;s one thing to say that individual should live by the standards laid out in the Bible and even to caution that God warns us about the choices we make, but no human can determine the exact outcome of another, Just because the Org now claims it will stop being presumptuous in this matter doesn't change what every JW should already know based on Scripture.

However, I do agree with and understand the passion of members countering TxNVSue2023's points with the fact that the Org HAS claimed to know, or at least to insert itself in as the sole source of divine authority on these subjects, and because of that many JWs have been misled into listening to men rather than God when making plans for their lives around what job to take, whether to marry, have children, move to another land to live, and so on.

As a result, there is a huge legacy of disappointment and bitterness which has nothing to do with what God and Scripture says, but everything to do with the interpretations of men, and in this case, a small group of men in Brooklyn.

20

Pioneer Hours

by Etude in

does anyone know how many hours were required to be a pioneer back in or around 1970?.

etude..

Journeyman

in most cases, it was HARD!

And no easy options like letter writing (for the average able-bodied publisher) or trolley witnessing (for anyone) either!

I don't even think they had reduced hours for the elderly and infirm back then, although I wasn't alive, let alone a JW, back in 1970 so someone might be correct me on that!