Posts by Journeyman

32

"instructions that aren't sound by a human standpoint"

by mikeflood in

what could be "an instruction not sound by a human standpoint"?.

i'm going by dissolving their legal entities...any guesses?.

Journeyman

I think a lot of it has to do with the closing/sale of Kingdom Halls [..]
I don't see going back to private homes, at least in the US, due to liability/zoning/parking/ADA issues.

I certainly think the Org has little wriggle room on most activities - including the more extreme ones I listed, which I was just brainstorming - in most parts of the world, especially the more "advanced" places like North America, UK, Europe and Australasia. And they're aware of this, which is why they've kept the detail of what they really intend to do (should the GT actually happen) very quiet.

As the world is now, the most they can do globally is radically rearrange circuits and zones, selling off facilities and herding the R&F into different sized congregations/groups or locations as they see fit. They already started doing a lot of that. As part of it, they can also radically rearrange their own internal organisation, perhaps replacing COs with rotating localised elder appointments, adjusting the average size of congregations, changing meeting times, teaching and structure, and so on.

They might try tightening up financial demands, but unlike some other groups like Scientology and the Mormons, they're limited in what they can do there because they don't have enough control to demand specific payments from their followers, nor does their historic teaching encourage members to earn enough to be high-paying donors.

But currently, their only levers with the R&F are organisational and financial.

None of this means anything to the outside world, but big changes in these areas would cause huge ripples of discontent internally.

32

"instructions that aren't sound by a human standpoint"

by mikeflood in

what could be "an instruction not sound by a human standpoint"?.

i'm going by dissolving their legal entities...any guesses?.

Journeyman

Well, going by the context in which they used it, it would refer to action that everyone in the congregation will be expected to take. Dissolving legal entities or any other purely structural changes wouldn't quite fit that, unless it came with radical changes to what is required for the average JW in the R&F.

I'm thinking that it would mean something more like:

Restructuring whole circuits, disbanding or merging congregations across large areas - either making them into tiny satellite groups, or conversely, large mega-groups.
Going back to at least some online meetings or meetings in private homes might be included in that, especially if it was felt that "persecution" by authorities was coming.
Requiring JWs to make significant financial donations (tithing?), or to surrender certain material possessions
In extremis - if the GB really believe what they say and actually thought the GT is imminent - possibly even declare a particular date when JWs should abandon their jobs and/or leave their non-believing family members and move in together. Maybe not like those extreme high control groups that have established their own "communes" or "compounds", but perhaps more like these smaller churches that encourage groups of "disciples" to form "families" that share households? That would both increase the ability to control, and consolidate material assets among local Witnesses.

Some have feared that they might "do a Jim Jones" but I've always thought that's ridiculous and completely outside anything the JWs have ever stood for.

The funny thing is though, that events, and the behaviour of the GB, even since that dramatic statement was first made, have radically changed again. At that time, all the output from the Org was leading to an almost "doomsday" style showdown with the world, accompanied by hiding in bunkers and being hunted down by black-clad army/police with automatic weapons and armoured vehicles.

But now, the messaging seems to have changed again, with the recent changes hinting at a less isolationist and more conciliatory tone with "the world" - softer messaging in the ministry towards destruction at Armageddon, more emphasis on God being the one to choose who he will allow to live and be resurrected, more emphasis on being "conversational" in the ministry, relaxing dress code, more encouragement to get faders and the disfellowshipped back, etc.

It all seems to send a confused message, for anyone who has been trying to follow the general direction the Org has been taking for the past 20-30 years.

18

2025KingdomMinistrySchoolPrograms2025Special**Talk!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

https://pdfupload.io/docs/d302ea8c .

( i hope i am doing this ok for everybody.

if i am messing up anywhere just let me know how to correct any of my errors!).

Journeyman

A couple of observations from both outlines:

1) Interestingly, the item called "Be Guided by Bible Principles", which sounds like it should be essential and form the basis of any teaching to "appointed men", is tucked away in the middle of the programme for servants and even later for elders, not right up front.

2) Comparing the two outlines, I see the one for Elders ends with the item "You Deserve 'Extraordinary Consideration'" whereas the one for ministerial servants is simply "We Hold You Dear" (which seems about as sincere as the GB's "We all love you very much", parroted at the end of every update video).

It sounds like the GB are continuing to blow smoke up the backsides of elders, feeding the false sense of their own importance, using 1 Thess 5:13 to do so.

This is a bad move for two reasons. For the majority of elders who probably feel tired, stressed and increasingly unsure about the direction of the Org, it gives no real reassurance to be patting them on the back and telling them how important they are, while continuing to dump more edicts and changes on them. On the other hand, for those elders who already think they are special and are God's "gift" to their congregation, their egos don't need any more massaging.

5

Does Jehovah have a sense of humour

by moomanchu in

jw
friends

we are created in his image so he has to have a perfect sense of humour.

.. the comedy started first thing:.

hey you two dummies.

Journeyman

I remember that in many congregations it would often be said behind the scenes:

"Of course Jehovah has a sense of humour. Look at who he has made GB members/circuit overseers/congregation elders!*" 🤣

* - delete as applicable

39

20250115**Ages For Ministerial Servants and Elders!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

2025-01-15-ages for ministerial servants and elders.. see page 2. .

https://pdfupload.io/docs/1b0b5c00 .

https://imgbox.com/p3a9yjmr.

Journeyman

I know of at least three brothers who do not want to become elders, not due to a lack of capacity or availability, but due to a lack of agreement with the teachings.

True, and not only that, but also all the additional stuff which brothers are increasingly seeing as internal "admin" or "politics", not necessary spiritual activity. I'm thinking of all the jostling for position between elders, ministerial servants and pioneers; the constant obsession with doing more... more... more... and giving more materially; the other obsession with avoiding anything that looks even slightly of seeking material comfort or stability (better job, promotion, higher education or training) or of allowing personal time for yourself and your family - not to mention all the admin work demanded by the Org for elders to do regarding talks, accounts, congregational reports and activities, cleaning, maintenance, etc.

Few of these things are truly rooted in the Scriptures or essential for a Christian congregation to exist, and so many brothers are understandably seeing them as unnecessarily burdensome and are choosing to opt out.

27

Making Friends with Babylon the Great: Watchtower’s New Goal

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/iv_uifab-qg?si=ttnajiuizmtqlte9.

it began during the last annual meeting of 2014 and now is trikling down to their watchtower magazines, this new "live and let live" attitude towards people of other faiths, or as they were known as babylon the great soon to be dead in the hands of god members.but it is a new different story, so let's read paragraph 15 from study article 15:.

"jehovah is kind to both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Journeyman

This is nothing less than WT admittling that they never believed the old filty whore schtick about churches, just as they never believed the fear porn about the UN being the wild beast of Satan when they agreed to support UN objectives while they were listed as a UN NGO.

It's not quite as simple as that. It's quite possible for someone to believe two or more contradictory things - most of us do in some aspect or other of our life, whether religion, politics, our working life or whatever.

So within the JW org there are those, from top to bottom, who DO believe (and have always done so) that all other religions are "Babylon the Harlot", and that the UN is the prophesied "image of the Beast". The official teaching is still that all political elements will come together to attack JWs, so although it is less overtly stated that the UN will lead that attack, it is clearly still doctrine that the majority, if not all, of nations will come together to fight against God, which is basically the UN by any other name (or its successor, should there be such an organisation). JW teaching is still clear that the UN as an organisation is heading into oblivion because it fundamentally opposes God.

However, what IS happening is a lack of unity and clarity over many beliefs that used to be "set in stone". This is because the apparently ironclad certainty of Fred Franz's teachings before the 1990s has broken down and there is no longer such total consensus from the top down. I think it is these divisions and schisms that have led to the radical changes we have seen since the 2010s - "new" NWT bible, dumping of "types and anti-types", videos everywhere, JW ~~televangelist~~ Broadcasting channel, "original" songs, changes on ministry and fashions, and who knows what else to come - and was possibly even behind AMIII's departure from the GB.

Where it's going, who knows, but sooner or later the Org is going to get itself openly caught in a contradictory "Catch 22" kind of bind over its past, present and potential future teachings. It's already approaching that with the whole supposed justification for the total "divine authority" of the GB. The cracks have started to show since the Australian Royal Commission and then the WT where they admitted to not being "infallible". As time goes on and they have to concede more and more - including probably to secular courts and governments - their assumed unique spiritual position will look increasingly shaky, and once that goes, all the other reasons - the "incentives to stay" that Vidiot mentioned - will collapse.

The JW org has been so certain of its "destiny" up until recently, that I suspect the GB are now panicking behind closed doors, wondering what they should do to buy more time before they expect God to save them. I think at least a significant number of key figures still believe those main doctrines about Babylon and the UN, but they are trying to play clever - "theocratic warfare" - and please all sides, especially to protect the cashflow. That's bound to end badly, either way, since they've neither been honest with the "wordly" organisations, nor true to their own teachings (which, if true, would mean they have been doing exactly what they accuse "Babylon" of doing and "sharing with the world", which would displease God and Jesus too).

39

20250115**Ages For Ministerial Servants and Elders!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

2025-01-15-ages for ministerial servants and elders.. see page 2. .

https://pdfupload.io/docs/1b0b5c00 .

https://imgbox.com/p3a9yjmr.

Journeyman

Eighteen for a Min Serv could be ok I suppose, depending on the individual, since they're really just congregational dogsbodies, assigned to administrative tasks and giving the odd platform item (which is not expected to be "teaching"). Elders are expected to keep an eye on them and "direct" them anyway (although I have seen congregations where they're often just left to themselves with little guidance).

But 21 for an elder - a role that is supposed to be about teaching, reproving, correcting and shepherding all in the flock - is crazy, for reasons that have been well discussed in many other threads.

How any CO or body of elders can really think a brother in a congregation who might be 21 or 22 is ready for that role amazes me. I wonder what the statistics are on how many congregations actually DO appoint men so young? We've had a few reports on here of some, but I would not be surprised if most congregations and COs will be hesitant to do so, even if only for selfish reasons (not wanting to see their choices go wrong if the young man burns out fast, and they get criticised, for example).

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

Journeyman

KalebOutWest - thanks for your answers. I was genuinely interested to know.

Then you added the prayers of Jesus. These have nothing to do with Judaism.

The reason for additionally asking about Jesus is that, as he was raised a Jew, I was interested in knowing to what extent his teaching really was a "break" from what went before. It's said to be radically different by both Jews and Christians (Jews, often to discredit what he said as heretical; Christians so as to claim their belief as a refinement or improvement on what went before), so I was interested in hearing your thought on just how different his message really would have sounded. From what you say, it was indeed a marked difference.

26

Jesus the Maintenance Man

by peacefulpete in

i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

Journeyman

In fact, Jews do not believe that God actually listens to prayer. He might, but then again God might not. That is not what prayer is about in Judaism.
[...]
Instead of believing that one's prayers are being heard by God or one is asking God for something, like Jehovah's Witnesses do, Jews are doing something entirely different. Jews believe they are mostly hearing God talk to them.
[...]
There is little in the way of requests in Jewish prayer. Even when one is sick or one dies, prayer is blessing God, asking that one learns to accept their place in the constant changes of reality, blessing these as they come, etc.

That's fascinating, but if so, that raises questions in my mind.

Does the evidence indicate that was what Jewish prayer always meant, or was that what it came to mean through human scholarly and rabbinic traditions over the centuries? The indications from many specific prayers recorded in the Hebrew scriptures suggest those giving them often requested something personally and truly believed God would hear them, for example:
Abraham - "Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelek, his wife and his female slaves so they could have children again" (Genesis 20:17)
David - "Lord, the God of our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Israel, keep these desires and thoughts in the hearts of your people forever, and keep their hearts loyal to you. And give my son Solomon the wholehearted devotion to keep your commands, statutes and decrees and to do everything to build the palatial structure for which I have provided." (1 Chronicles 29:18,19)
Jacob - "Save me, I pray, from the hand of my brother Esau, for I am afraid he will come and attack me, and also the mothers with their children." (Genesis 32:11)
Hannah - "In her deep anguish Hannah prayed to the Lord, weeping bitterly. And she made a vow, saying, 'Lord Almighty, if you will only look on your servant’s misery and remember me, and not forget your servant but give her a son, then I will give him to the Lord for all the days of his life, and no razor will ever be used on his head.'" (1 Samuel 1:10,11)

Some of those verses were mixed in with what your quote calls more fixed prayers which I can understand, but are clearly personal requests or pleadings - for example, David's words in 1 Chronicles.

On the other hand, if it was always understood to be that way, doesn't that mean that the kind of prayer Jesus taught his followers was radically different? Jesus clearly taught that prayer was intended to include direct personal requests, petitions, hopes, fears and desires, as well as the things you mention (wisdom to accept ones' place, thanksgiving to God, recognise his will, etc), and so was not mainly to be "fixed" in the same sort of way.

16

The Curious Case of Cameroon in Africa in the World Report

by LaFrancia in

we know that in africa warwick/watchtower is adopting a policy of more congregations with fewer publishers in each congregation.

this explains the growth of congregations in the 2024 world report.. cameroon world report 2019 vs. 2024.. with the same number of publishers the congregations grew by about 13%.. will there be many more curious cases out there?.

Journeyman

I think Careful could be on to something there. The Org has become obsessed with more and more localised and niche languages - a look at all their literature releases and the languages they claim on their website shows this. And foreign language groups and congregations are likely to be smaller, but more numerous in countries with many local tribes, languages and dialects, as can apply across Africa.

Although Fulano says that Cameroon is mostly French or English speaking, that World Atlas data does suggest more than a quarter of the population speak neither language, and recent news from Africa shows that the Francophone world there is getting sick of French colonial presence and increasingly rejecting French political and military influence, just as they have from English colonial powers, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were not a corresponding rise in take-up of local dialects and languages, as often happens when culture becomes politicised.

Apart from French and English, the Find A Meeting on the JW website says they have meetings in Cameroon in:

Douala
Ewondo
West African Pidgin
Cameroon Sign Language
Ghomala
Gbaya
Boulou
Toupouri
Awing

Some of them seem to be highly regional - for example, "Awing" only seems to exist in three congregations clustered in the NW of the country. According to Wikipedia the language is thought to have 19,000 native speakers in that region (2001 figures, so could be more now, but still quite a small population).

This article from last summer outlines some of the problems faced in Francophone Africa, and why they are leaning away from France and looking to increase their own independence.
https://www.voanews.com/a/cameroon-meeting-of-french-speaking-africa-lawmakers-decry-instability-foreign-influence-/7633204.html