Posts by Journeyman

2965

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Hmm... how has his Patreon just jumped up by nearly 100 members? It was at 439 the other day...

176

No more REPORTING field service!!!!!!!!!

by BoogerMan in

this is going to break the hearts of a lot of uber-jw's!

reddit has now removed the video link of samuel herd telling jw's they will no longer have to report time or placements - just tick a box which says "active.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akdshyx79rm&t=13s.

Journeyman

It should be scriptural because they always warn against "going beyond what is written"."

I think they mean going beyond what they've written.

I agree with your point about introducing new procedures where necessary (for example, to cover something that never existed before) - an obvious example is procedures for using video and audio at the meetings. Such things never existed in Bible times, so there could hardly be instructions in scripture about it. Likewise with modern day banking and corporate laws.

But by using a Bible phrase known to mean "what is written in scripture", they imply that procedures and processes that the GB have introduced are of equal status to the Bible. That's like the idea that what is in the Watchtower and JW publications has the same spiritual weight as the Bible itself. That's a dangerous equivalence to make, and any Christian should be very careful about that.

When looking at what the org talks about, I always distinguish between "scriptural" (endorsed by the scriptures), "unscriptural" (against the scriptures) and what I call "non-scriptural" (not in the scriptures). Something "non-scriptural", is where the Bible neither endorses or condemns it, and even verses related to the subject do not give a clear indication one way or another.

There are lots of things where the GB has either made a specific rule, or has allowed, by a process of hints and inferences, an unspoken but broadly accepted "view" to develop in the congregations, even where the Bible does not say either way. Sometimes there are even localised "interpretations" in different regions (for example, the infamous cases of brothers being counselled for not having the 'right' colour shirt, tie, hairstyle, facial hair, etc). Some of these are fairly trivial, but others are more serious and have caused a lot of anxiety and even stumbled some.

30

CIVILIAN SERVICE

by blondie in

how many remember when the wts changed their policy on alternative service; changed it to alternative civilian service so jw men could choose it because it was not supervised by the military.

shows how the wts quibbles with words to advance a "new teaching.

" flag salute, voting, civilian service p. 212. civilian service.

Journeyman

No where does the Bible say "you may not work in civilian service" just like no where does it say "you may not vote".

While I agree with most of what you say, I would be wary about stating that Christians today can legitimately either vote for governments or serve in the military, without risking making themselves "part of the world".

All the examples you cite of working in high government office, directly influencing political affairs, are from the Old Testament, when God was using a specific nation on earth and also using the tools of human governance (eg: wars, political intrigues) in order to support that nation. So as you say, he placed individuals directly into roles for them to manoeuvre and influence events.

Since the arrival of the Messiah (the appointed King of God's Kingdom), the Scriptures show that God explicitly is not favouring or using a specific nation state on earth now (and has in fact purposed to wipe out human governments), so Christians should be more careful about matters that directly involve political affairs. The state of the world today shows the wisdom of keeping involvement more at arms-length, to avoid being caught up in bitter politics, bloodshed, etc (just look at Ukraine, Gaza-Israel, etc, etc!)

Regarding voting, this is clearly a position where an individual is choosing to endorse a particular political party to rule (even if just for a few years), unless they choose to enter the polling booth and spoil their ballot paper. That means that by voting, whether you like or accept it or not, you are endorsing all that that party stands for, against its rivals. You bear a share of responsibility for what it does (both good and evil) if it comes to power.

Serving in a job within civil administration is not necessarily the same (for example the UK's civil service or a similar administrative role) as you are not explicitly favouring a particular party ideology, in the same way that paying taxes (which may be used in part to fund non-Christian things such as weapons) is not the same as directly working in a factory that builds munitions. To my knowledge there is no indication of any Bible Christian voting for a human leader or ruler (such as in the Roman Senate or equivalent administrative body).

Regarding military service today, bear in mind that Christians are prohibited from deliberately killing others. This rules out serving in a modern-day military, since being trained and used to kill others is a key part of the role. In contrast, roles like riot control, investigating crimes such as theft, murder, and other civilian duties do not require the need to kill, so a role in a civilian police force or civil/home guard is potentially more acceptable.

In Bible times, all these civilian duties were also performed by elements of the military as there was no such thing as a formal civilian police force, so at that time there would have been no distinction. So with regard to someone like Cornelius, once converted to Christianity, he could have transferred to (or perhaps was already serving in) a more 'civil' capacity as a guard or administrator/trainer/etc, but still retain his rank and position in the Roman military.

So today, I would draw the distinction between serving in the military (where a willingness to kill is essential) and serving in a civil guard or police role (where it is not), in terms of your likely exposure to behaviour that could violate Christian standards.

22

I think circuit overseers should have a job like the apostle Paul

by forzaitalia in

am i being mean, thinking that travelling overseers should get a part-time job like paul did, in order to not be a burden to the congregation?

i wouldn't put my hand up when we were asked to raise it if we were happy to give £50 from congregation funds to the c.o.

so that he could take his wife out for a meal.

Journeyman

Thanks for this post, forza. I agree.

Here is a post of BoogerMan on the subject:
"Career Christians" ignore these Scriptures
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5940059249836032/career-christians-ignore-these-scriptures

And thanks to Belisem for reposting that link. Fascinating thread which reinforces the principle, and shows that the current CO arrangement is yet another area where the GB have (supposedly) aimed to "imitate the first-century Christian congregation" but got it badly wrong, with lots of dire consequences (misuse of donations, unnecessary burden placed on circuit congregations, COs and their wives thrown aside with no skills when they're removed, etc).

The problem with this that I see now is that the org would have to recruit more COs to allow for the fact that each individual would have fewer hours available to serve the congregations. That wouldn't have been a problem up until the early 2000s, when numbers of experienced brothers was ok, but with it getting harder to find men who are willing to work for this current GB, I doubt that could happen. Also, in many cities especially, the cost of living means earnings from part-time work barely cover a person's weekly expenses for food, bills, etc, so a CO would have to spend many more hours in secular work (a problem the R&F such as regular pioneers are already experiencing). And the biggest single cost for most is accommodation, but the org has been closing halls with circuit flats and selling off other residential properties.

So it's an arrangement that they could and should have put in place while it was a "favourable season", but it's now too late to start that. Another sign the org is reaping the results of flawed past decisions.

45

List of main points from 2023 AGM

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

1. doctrinal changes how new light comes about.

the gb raise questions then talk about it, unless it’s unanimous they wait, then years later talk again if it’s unanimous it then gets announced as new light.. 2. the gb are imperfect and sometimes make mistakes.

they are not to apologise or even admit they were wrong.

Journeyman

by the way let's spin Christmas as a celebration of our Lord and redemptor, and of course the Bible really hasn't a prohibition about birthdays....

I know you're only half-serious, if that (I think?) but I know what you mean. Accepting Christmas will never happen (and personally I couldn't care less about that, as it genuinely has nothing to do with Christianity), but with so many "sacred cows" of JW doctrine being 'slaughtered' by the current GB since the early 2000s, I could see a time when they make celebrating birthdays a "conscience issue" (like certain medical procedures have become) on the basis that, as you say, the Bible does not explicitly prohibit them.

That would certainly help to make JWs seem less 'weird' to outsiders, and reduce some of the alienation from non-believing family members, work colleagues, etc. They could spin it that life is a gift from God and birthdays are a celebration of another year of life, part of family and community bonding, an opportunity for an individual to reflect on their life course and think about their future, etc, etc.

There are many things that the org could declare matters of conscience or scrap altogether, because they still have lots of internal man-made rules that have no clear basis in Bible teaching.

45

List of main points from 2023 AGM

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

1. doctrinal changes how new light comes about.

the gb raise questions then talk about it, unless it’s unanimous they wait, then years later talk again if it’s unanimous it then gets announced as new light.. 2. the gb are imperfect and sometimes make mistakes.

they are not to apologise or even admit they were wrong.

Journeyman

They said get ready to begin a more hard hitting message. Even had a video about it. Then a week later. They talk about a new kinder, gentler Jehovah and Jesus that will give people an opportunity to repent during the GT. And then the no reporting hours now. So what is it?

Actually, the two are not incompatible.

Remember the account of Jonah. God gave him the commission to give a judgment message to the Ninevites. He went (eventually) and did that, and to his surprise they listened and repented. He was annoyed about that, but God accepted their repentance.

So the preaching message might "toughen up" into a judgment message, but that does not mean that God is not open to "pardoning the error" of those who listen.

With the "no reporting" change - if the org had been following the Christian model properly from the start, that should always have been the case:
1) The Christian ministry is supposed to be about people and their experiences not hours and numbers
2) It's also supposed to be about being motivated "from the heart" to preach, not prodded by numbers for productivity, or competition for position
3) it sorts out who is doing it out of genuine belief and interest - anyone not really motivated or who doesn't believe it will stop or ease off now, and that's for the best all round.

As for "leave the judgment to Jehovah and Jesus" message, that's also how it should have been if the org had really been following Christian principles from the start (rather than throwing shade at anyone who is not already a baptised Witness, which has been common behaviour in many congregations).

The bit of this meeting programme that intrigues me more is what BluesBrother highlighted.

In my opinion, the GB are entirely right (albeit very late) to say explicitly that only Jehovah God and Jesus can determine who is resurrected. [Assuming the viewpoint that one believes all this in the first place, as the GB supposedly do.]

But it opens a huge can of worms on a similar, but perhaps even more important point that challenges the GB's very own self-proclaimed status. To extend BluesBrother's quote from Splane:

"We shouldn’t be dogmatic about who will and who won’t be resurrected" ... to heaven

I have always thought it arrogant to assume that individuals who say they are anointed are definitely in heaven once they've died. For decades, the org has said things like "So-and-So .... has received their heavenly reward"

If the GB are now openly acknowledging that only Jehovah and Jesus determine who will be resurrected to earth, surely the same is true regarding who is resurrected to a heavenly place [given that JW teaching is that not all go to heaven, of course]?

They have already recently spelled out clearly (in an attempt to explain the surge in partakers) that a person "believing sincerely" that they are anointed is not proof they are actually anointed (although that somewhat undermines Romans 8:16). Coupled with this "clarification", that openly calls into question the organisation's assumption that every member of the GB past and present - and various faithful 20th Century oldtimers - are guaranteed a place in heaven

If it's "above their pay grade" to decide about the earthly resurrection, surely it's even moreso with the heavenly resurrection?

21

With no reporting necessary do they still need a territory guy?

by carla in

now that they no longer have to report hours do they still need a territory guy?

maps?

etc...?.

Journeyman

I don't see it will make any difference to the need to have a territory servant, use maps, etc - unless there are more changes to come.

However, I agree with Teddnzo that removing the need to report will dramatically reduce the amount of ministry that publishers do, and that in turn will mean maps go for much longer without being completed.

From my experience, congregations are already going through their maps much more slowly since the return to house-to-house work, and this announcement about ending reporting for most publishers must surely make that worse.

176

No more REPORTING field service!!!!!!!!!

by BoogerMan in

this is going to break the hearts of a lot of uber-jw's!

reddit has now removed the video link of samuel herd telling jw's they will no longer have to report time or placements - just tick a box which says "active.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akdshyx79rm&t=13s.

Journeyman

"Regardless of how this will be spun in J.W land, the reason can only be a coverup of poor statistics, instead of having to show a poor yearly report, they can now say we no longer collect the data."

This is a good point. It's a standard tactic of governments and other corporations around the world, too. Deliberately stop collecting data on subjects you find 'awkward' or you want to ignore, then if anyone challenges you, you can just claim "we don't know and can't comment on that as we don't have the data".

It's a trick, for example, that the UK government have started using now that they have reduced the amount of data they collect about ethnicity in the UK population census, so that there is plausible deniability over concerns about mass immigration. Up until a number of years ago, the census used to collect very specific information on how people identified themselves (racial/ethnic background, etc) and the resulting nationwide stats were available to see and download from the GOV.UK website. But now, they've reduced the amount of info they collect about ethnic background, to obfuscate the scale of immigration in British towns and cities.

It seems the org is doing something similar to avoid having to confront the degree of visible decline in the house-to-house work and other forms of ministry. If you don't have the numbers in the first place, then there's no hard evidence of a problem for you to have to explain to critics!

176

No more REPORTING field service!!!!!!!!!

by BoogerMan in

this is going to break the hearts of a lot of uber-jw's!

reddit has now removed the video link of samuel herd telling jw's they will no longer have to report time or placements - just tick a box which says "active.".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akdshyx79rm&t=13s.

Journeyman

Very interesting. They've finally removed the unscriptural requirement for everyone to report time and numbers of placements.

Of course, I'm sure it's nothing to do with wanting to make the ministry more like the Christian ministry that Jesus established, and remove a burden on the brothers and sisters - more likely just because the number of hours and placements that the average publisher reports each month has fallen to disappointingly low levels.

And if anyone needed yet another incentive NOT to pioneer, this is it. Yes, why not enter the full-time service, and continue having to report hours and studies every single month! Or... you could just not bother, and you'll never have to report stats again! Woohoo! They really haven't thought that one through...

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

Don't jump to conclusions, ladies and gentleman. Lloyd will soon be releasing his videos on his first tattoo and the rendezvous with the Hare Krishnas in the forest and this will bring the 30 lost patrons back.

Of course. I was forgetting the massive inked exHK community out there! They'll be thrilled to sign up. Especially the many who are into scuba-diving in Thailand. Our boy is just the content creator they're looking for.

Meanwhile, he's taken immediate action on Twitter/X today - he's posted another comment about Star Wars.