Your first mistake is that you're trying to reason with a cult member. Just as it is with JWs, it is with Mormons: as long as they want to believe, and don't question the religious authority, you cannot convince them that maybe they're wrong. The doubts and questions have to come from within...and then they can be reasoned with. If a TBM (true blue Mormon) hasn't already questioned on his own the crazy shit they believe, a few nuggets of info on the Sabbath ain't gonna do nuthin...
undercover
JoinedPosts by undercover
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16
Crap trying to reason with a Mormon He is asking about the Sabath
by Found Sheep innice guy i worked with him for about a year.
he is mormon but every time we were in a place to talk he brought up religion, cult thinking.... he needs to come clean i think.... ripe for the vine of non cult thinking but not an ex-jw so i don't have the upper hand?
is there a coc for mormons?
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Why are some of you guys calling this new arrangement tithing?
by neverendingjourney inat the risk of being shouted down, i thought i'd point out that "tithing" means giving 10 percent of your income to a church.
it comes from the old english word teogotha meaning tenth.
i've seen nothing that establishes tithing in the watchtower.. while i'm all in favor of pointing out the watchtower's lies, hypocrisies and faults, the language we use matters.
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undercover
i would suggest we should come up with a new name for this new arrangement.
How about what it really is: Coercion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion
...the practice of forcing another party to act in an involuntary manner by use of intimidation or threats or some other form of pressure or force.
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How did you tell your spouse you want out of the JW religion?
by leaving_quietly inwhat did you imagine would happen?
did they react the way you expected?
how did you bring it up?.
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undercover
Why do some here have the courage to stand up and say "this is my last meeting" and others not? Any reasons for this?
In my case... where I didn't force a showdown... I already knew that you couldn't force a JW to see facts and logic and come to the realization that the WTS was just another (false) religion. They, just as we were, are indoctrinated. Their real personality is stifled in order to keep the JW personality in charge.
I had always had some doubts, but like most here, managed to keep them stuffed away, never to let them take root. But once a couple of doctrinal changes caused me to out and out question, all those doubts led to some hard research and soul searching. I realized it was bunk, and I tried to slyly introduce evidence for review, but it usually didn't take.
Oh, we had arguments, but by the time it got to that point, the eyes had glazed over, the ears had plugged up and the brain had disengaged, and the cult personality/defense took over. Aside from those moments of disagreement, disappointment, and full on delusion on the part of the JW, the marriage is a good one and is worth fighting for. For me personally, I didn't want the WTS to win her over. I wanted to sway her from them. Still working at it. I've made progress, but the war drags on...Memorial season is usually the toughest time of the year. That's when all our other JW family 'encourage' us to return.
Another thing I read over and over here on this site: When one mate realizes the lies of the WTS and seeks to find freedom from them, their JW mate reasons that by the one leaving the 'truth', it means their marriage is doomed, that they can't continue on without both serving Jehovah the WTS. My wife charged the same thing. I told her that I married her for her, not for our faith, our religion. And instead of just saying it, I had to, over time, and lots of it, show it to her. Just because I'm no longer a practicing JW doesn't mean I've cast her aside as well. I made it a point to keep her first in my life, over work, over other family, over everything else. That part is working. We are closer now than ever. The religion rarely comes up and over time she is now inactive, at least physically. Mentally she has yet to make the final break, but she is more critical in her thinking. She is more independant. She doesn't look to the WTS for solving problems, or choosing sides in social issues (she is in favor of gay marriage and legalizing weed, for instance). Her social life involves 'worldly' people - co-workers, neighbors, people she meets in social settings that have nothing to do with the JW religion. Except for a few sticking points that I haven't been able to break her from, she is not much different than all of us who have already broken free. Once she gets to the point of admitting she was in a cult, then she'll be truly free.
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G.B. ARRANGED A MEMORIAL WITHOUT EMBLEMS!
by The Searcher inweird!.
http://ilynca.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/unforgettable-memorial.html?spref=fb.
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undercover
"Keep doing this in remembrance of me... unless of course you have a communicable disease, then just wash your hands and sit quietly over there...way over there. Oh, and I'm not going to wash your feet before dinner this time either..."
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GB approves entertainment auditioning for international delegates.
by suavojr ini don't know if this was mentioned but i spoke with a jw from atlanta, georgia that informed me that the great gb has approved jw auditions.. yes, you read that right!
now the jw's will have their own jw idol, jw voice, and dancing with jw stars, lol.. they are using an assembly hall in atlanta and jw's from all over are auditioning from 8am till 6pm.. supposedly the idea is to have live entertainment for the delegates traveling from overseas for the international conventions.. he said they have had jw's who can play all the hits from the beatles, play merengue, salsa, sing, dance, etc.. the gb is trying hard to make their cult look normal.. some of the questions this rises are,.
will it work?
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undercover
God, er, Jehovah forbid that delegates from overseas get to sightsee or enjoy local music/entertainment venues. Let's keep those foreign dubs pure and chaste by not letting them experience real American honky-tonks, or discos, or stage plays. Instead round them up, lock em in a room, and force them to be entertained by local dubs whose music knowledge and tastes ranch from 50s/60s 'oldies' to Kingdom Melodies.
And if you do play the Beatles, keep the lyrics clean. "I Want to Hold Your Hand" must contain the changed lyrics, 'I want to hold your hand...while on a properly chaperoned WT approved group date'...
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Your Experience with Resigning as an Elder
by committeechairman ini'm considering resigning as an elder.
i'm not planning to fade or stop as one of jehovah's witnesses, just stop serving as an elder.. i have responsibility in the congregation and in circuit, district, rbc, etc.
and i'm completely exhausted.
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undercover
Never was an elder, and I didn't have to resign as MS, got the boot, which was fine with me at the time...
...But a friend (at the time) stepped down for some of the same reasons you list. And when he got blowback from the rest of elders, he stood up to them and said that his family came first and foremost, and it was his duty as head of the house to make sure he presided over them in a fine manner. He knew that he could not carry the burden and didn't really care what they thought or did, he was doing what he had to do to manage his sanity, his health, and serve his family. I always respected him for that. To not only stand up to the peer pressure but to know your limit and when to say, 'it's time to pull back and focus on what's really important' instead of trying to juggle everything the WTS throws at elders.
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So sorry to report... this memorial was not the last one
by suavojr innothing new to report... this memorial was not the last one (sigh) :(.
on top of that, the assistance for my hall was the same as last year.
i don't see how they will break the 20 million mark.. also, with the current trend the brothers who partake publicly will most likely pass the 14,000.. how was the memorial in your part of the world?.
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undercover
A diehard JW in my family made the infamous true believer comment a couple of weeks ago, "This will probably be our last Memorial before the end..." I just roll my eyes and leave the room when that kind of mess is started. I try hard to never argue with delusional types, but another JW family member, one who is still in, still believes, but isn't completely braindead and has moments of clarity jumped their case and told them, "don't say that. Saying those things is what makes people think we're crazy. We don't know when the end is and pretending to know only makes things worse, so knock it off".
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Memorial Musings
by undercover ina few things noticed in last nights annual, jesus who?
gathering:.
1: only one scripture from the gospels was read or cited.
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undercover
They did read from 1 Corinthians... Right before passing each emblem
But Corinthians is not part of the gospels... Supposed first hand accounts (if you believe in the Bible) of the apostles who lived along side Jeseus and witnessed his ministry and death.
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Memorial Musings
by undercover ina few things noticed in last nights annual, jesus who?
gathering:.
1: only one scripture from the gospels was read or cited.
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undercover
A few things noticed in last night’s annual, ‘Jesus who? Gathering’:
1: Only one scripture from the Gospels was read or cited. One. As in, ‘it’s the loneliest number ‘. The rest were from 1 Corinthians, Revelation and Isaiah.
2. ‘Isaiah?’ you ask… Yes, a good portion of the Memorial talk was an infomercial for the paradise earth that you, yes you in attendance, can enjoy forever… if you call this number today… or something like that.
3. The words, ‘Faithful Discreet Slave Class’ were not mentioned…at all.
4. The 144,000 is still a literal number. They are the Little Flock and Anointed. And only their remnant should partake.
5. The number of partakers from last year was not cited. Not even referenced. They did mention how many attended. Whooppeee.
6. The speaker was a Bethel elder, visiting the area. He gave a new illustration to show how meaningful the ransom sacrifice is. Say you were diagnosed with a terminal illness but could not afford the medical procedure to save your life, no matter how much you pooled yours, your families, your friends, etc, resources together. Without that procedure you would die ( I wondered if that procedure involved blood transfusions but I digress). But along comes a single benefactor to pay for everything in order that you could have that procedure and live. What a loving thing to do. And that relates to what leads me to the next point…
7. A paraphrase from the speaker at the end of his illustration, ‘what a sacrifice that…’ wait for it… No. Not Jesus. Don’t think ahead now. ‘What a sacrifice that Jehovah made in sending his son to die in order pay that ransom’. Wait. What? What about the guy who actually did the dying? The guy that gave up his cushy cloud in heaven and slummed it down here with lowly humans for 33 years and then had to give himself up for sacrifice? Wow. And this is supposed to be a Memorial for him after all.
8. Overall, most people seemed to be in good spirits, friendly, etc. But yet, and this is hard to describe… there seemed to be an emptiness behind their smiles and eyes. I know that most are sincere in their faith, but do they know real happiness from what they are told is happiness? People I've known for decades have not changed (except older and heavier)... at all. They act the same, think the same, behave the same as they always have. Nothing new or exciting. It's a bit surreal. Are they programmed to ‘think’ they’re happy? Is this like a bad B-grade sci-fi movie? Instead of Westworld, is this JW-world? Robots trained to behave a certain way.
9. Overall, I've noticed that the talk is more dumbed down than ever. Very little about Jesus' life. Nothing about his ministry. Nothing about his arrest and trial. Less mention of Adam this year. Just enough to say, 'Adam lost perfect life. Jesus' died as a ransom'. No explanation in detail. It's like the Cliff notes of what a Memorial should have been. The rest of the talk was about who does, and doesn't partake and how great a paradise earth is and what we need to do get there.
10. And finally - the speaker alluded to, and it was quick, the fact that we could live to see the end of this system and live through to the paradise. He didn't dwell on it. It was so quick it was almost subliminal. Yet, it was there. Dangling that 'live forever' carrot is part of their M.O. still
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What usually happens after the memorial?
by Frazzled UBM indo members of the congregation usually have a meal together after the memorial?
does the fact that my wife has decided not to travel across town to her filipino congregation and is going to the local one instead and wants to be picked up when it finishes at 8 pm mean that she hasn't been invited to a meal with her filipino congregation and that she is being socially excluded by them?
i think this is good news but i don't want her to get caught up with the local congregatin because i don't want them coming around to pressure her to attend when she is irregular.
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undercover
Well, back when I was active, I was a bit younger... but yes, we always got a group to go out after the memorial. Sometimes it was a simple outing, maybe a pizza parlor or similar, but then it got to be bars and late night joints. We traded the stuffy, well-behaving dubs for some fun-loving ones, and ventured into the city night life, looking for...and sometimes finding...excitement that is generally frowned upon in JW-land. (wink wink nudge nudge)