Posts by waiting

Why? WE WERE IN A CULT. We had our emotions twisted, hammered, seduced, to believe them. Sure, to an extent - we bought into it. Does anybody join a cult knowing ahead of time saying, "Oh, ok. Abuse me." We kinda fell into it. The kids born into it just had to wait to leave - if they figured it out. Ultimately, I was seduced.....but at the same time......I didn't leave.

These people above, like Blondie said, show varying degrees of thinking style. From fear of Satan in everything....to fear of Jehovah killing them.....to thinking about context of love.

Thanks for your last post, Blondie. Interesting.

waiting

37

White Collar Sweatshops....You are Helping to Fund Them!!!

by teenyuck in

jw
friends

interesting article in time magazine..... http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101030804-471198,00.html.

where the good jobs are going.

some excerpts:jobs that stay put are becoming a lot harder to find these days.

waiting

NOW I understand. I've been dealing with paysystems over two purchases. 4 help persons so far.........and all foreign accents. Not much help either.

Pretty good English, however.

waiting

38

VOMIT Alert----Unconditional Love per a JW DB-----long (65 posts)

by blondie in

jw
friends

posted by hope on 12-18-2002 01:43 pm: .

posted by hope on 12-18-2002 04:25 pm: .

posted by hope on 12-18-2002 04:48 pm: .

waiting

"Unconditional Love" ------- I thought that the vast majority of these posters said there was no such thing in the Bible.

They said it was a worldly phrase............as jw's had "loyal love", agape love - which means principled love to jw's, doesn't it?

I think the only way they viewed unconditional love was with their view of Jehovah. But, in return, they agreed he felt conditional love for them.

waiting

38

VOMIT Alert----Unconditional Love per a JW DB-----long (65 posts)

by blondie in

jw
friends

posted by hope on 12-18-2002 01:43 pm: .

posted by hope on 12-18-2002 04:25 pm: .

posted by hope on 12-18-2002 04:48 pm: .

waiting

Gee...............thanks.

After reading, I just feel kinda depressed.

But at age 19, she got disfellowshipped and now, at age 25, she is WAY out of the truth and very bitter over her experiences.
For my own sanity, I had to separate from her emotionally, and just try not to think about it. Thankfully, she moved up to Seattle several years ago so I don't have to see her.
Do I still love her? I try not to and try not to think about it, but she is my first born child. I can't just obliterate that love.

Now we have been strongly counseled not to have anything to do with DF'd relatives. And I want to say, "Please, Jehovah, just let me have a little time with her before she dies." We can't do that , though, and not many people have compassion for it. Most people have a very tough stance about it. So, I go on and try not to think about it...
So I guess you would say that, no, my love for my child can't even be unconditional.__________________
Agape,
Debbie

This was the most heart-wrenching - like, just slap the idiot upside the head. But I remember thinking......can I somehow word my prayer to Jehovah so I won't get in trouble praying for my df'd child....yet He might still accept my prayer? Damned closed minded mother - because she loves the mind image of Jehovah.

Btw the way, when Debbie wanted to pray to Jehovah about her daughter, but couldn't because of JW laws....who was she talking about when saying "not many people have compassion for it. Most people hae a very tough stance about it." JW's? tough stance in relation to their kids? Or worldly people who think JW's are idiots because of their stance in relation to their kids?

Trust me, I love all of my children but I could never love them unconditionally and as a mother I can say this.....there could be situations and circumstances to me that would cause me not only to not like one of my children but that would cause my love for them to cease.......(and at the present I can be a sap about my children.......still try to hug my teen.....still call my grown son sweetie.....he still says I love you mom.....worry wort mom.....etc)......but I can see that I could go there.......I definitely do not love my babies unconditionally
as a matter of fact Jehovah went there too...... ioneblair

yeah, if my kid was a serial killer or stalked me (or others)......yeah. But other than gross criminal actions or major abuse of some sort? Cold woman.

...agape love, especially when it is applied to someone who has hurt us in some way... may have been disciplined.. but has shown remorse.
If this person is truly repentant, we are under obligation -- as a matter of principle -- to extend love toward that one. NiteMouse

Child molesters included? Rapists?

I think 'unconditional love' is one of the cruelest hoaxes Satan has perpetrated on humans to date. It is a total perversion of agape love which, by definition, IS conditional by virtue of principles. Since "God IS love", it is therefore a perversion of Jehovah himself.
My reasons for this conclusion:

1. Why doesn't the Bible or the 'faithful and discreet slave' use this term?
2. Why haven't we heard about 'unconditional love' before? It's quite a modern way of thinking. You didn't hear about it even a few years ago, certainly not when I was growing up. Must be another one of those modern philosophies. Manmade, yes - but could it be Satanic? 3. What are the fruits of this teaching? It seems so good and appealing on the surface. Who wouldn't want to be loved unconditionally? But it has caused immeasurable pain. Disobedient children throw it in their parents' faces. Heartbroken and crushed parents are told that they must forgive the pervert who raped and killed their child. I'm sure you can think of more. But of course the worst, "It doesn't matter what you do. God loves you anyway."

And there, to me, is the perversion. Does the brochure, "What Does God Require?" appeal to a person who believes in 'unconditional love'? Does it show respect for all our faithful brothers and sisters who, because of their deep love for Jehovah, strive hard to please him and bring glory to him by their faithfulness and integrity? With this teaching - why bother? God loves you anyway! Most of all, it perverts Jehovah himself, because it misrepresents what true love is.

How much more I love the expression the Bible uses -
loyal love. Doesn't that really say it all? DebB - The Grand JW who nobody ever liked anyway (added by me)

"Heartbroken and crushed parents are told that they must forgive the pervert who raped and killed their child." -actually, this is a good point.........and is totally contrary to what NiteMouse posted above her.

the very purest emotion of love i have ever felt as a human for a human was the moment i looked into my newborns' eyes for the first time. that feeling is my definition of unconditional love. you're not thinking "what if you grow up and leave the truth...what if you turn out rotten...what if you become an apostate" at that moment. what i feel for my children has never changed--that feeling has remained at the core of my feelings for them, despite disappointments. shelby

"you're not thinking "what if you grow up and leave the truth...what if you turn out rotten...what if you become an apostate" at that moment."

TWO of the three things which could stop her love for her child are the child leaving the truth or becoming an apostate. Killer? Rapist? Thief? awe.............momma still loves ya!

17

Quote from new "Great Teacher" book...

by razorMind in

jw
friends

i read with great interest the scanned pages that were shown on the other thread.

i really want to get a copy of this book for myself.

here's a direct quote from the chapter about satan and his deeeminz:

waiting

JWSONS!!!!!!!!!!

Your HERE is great..............y'all need to go see what he thinks all the time!

Go back to jwsons' post!

waiting

4

To JW's who believe WT is the"Truth"

by ARoarer in

i have seen comments by jw's who support the notion that thier is a group of "special men" like russell that jehovah has selected to write down the "inspired" thoughts through watchtower and awake and other publications.. .

first of all, the bible tells us that god "cannot lie" and every "inspired utterances are true".

that being the case, how can the truth of god originate in lies by a man, russell who was heavily involved in the occult.?

waiting

Why is the "watchtower" symbol of the organization, rooted in the occult as many of the teachings and symbols of Russell?

I didn't know that. What's the "wathtower" stand for - or who was it used by?

I know Russell had the Rah sungod image (outstretched golden wings) on the Finished Mysteries volumes 1-7 (there are different covers for the many different times they published & sold the same set).

And the Stanley Theater has the Rah Sungod golden wings blazed across the front of it (original to the building). Even if it is original to building, they most likely could have covered it with something else.....I'm sure they would have done something if it had been a huge crucifix.

Thanks for the thread.

waiting

68

Who's To Blame For The Child Abuse Problem?

by Englishman in

just trying to get my head around this one.

with the jailing last week of a london dub paedophile, i was wondering: .

is it the religion itself that gives these perverts the feeling that they are invincible and immune from punishment when they commit these acts?

waiting

Hello ARoarer,

Thanks for entering this thread with yet another perspective. There are so many true ways to look at this problem.............and still more ways we haven't even commented upon.

Unlike the Catholic church , and other religions who have a paid minister presiding over the congregation, Jehovah's Witnesses are made up of families who not only interact intercongregationally, but marry intercongregationally... In these families there are elders who are fathers, brothers, uncles, cousins, grandfathers all interrelated through marriages. There is a lot more instance of molestations of little girls by these men.

incestuous, interfamilial, situation, where you have the victim being molested by elder dad, or uncle or grandfather, who is also molesting others within the family and congregations. The secret is kept very well by these molesters and the co-dependant family members who are either in denial about uncle so and so or want to protect the "family" name, the elder position, all in the name of not bringing "reproach" on Jehovah.

Another version of "What goes on in these four walls, stays in these four walls." Going back to second-class women, it's been known for some time that some mothers, grandmothers, know that incest is going on. They accept if for a variety of reasons:

feel they can do nothing.
they feel they survived it for the good of the family, so can their daughters.
they feel it's not that much & child will get over it. they did.
don't want people to know about their dirty secrets.
don't want outsiders to find out.
buy into the idea that the girl deserved it, prancing around like that.
probably more reasons too.

victims are told not to talk about it, and the co-dependant family members go along with this believing they are protecting the peace of the congregation and remaining loyal.

JW families are taking direction from elders, often family members and close friends, misguiding them into believing it is in their best interest before Jehovah that the child does not speak.

Thank you for your insight. I know you and your family have lived this nightmare.

waiting

97

My wifes and I meeting with two elders. Their true colors shine through

by Winston Smith :>D in

i thought id give you an update re whats going on.

my qing the wts of recent has been very hard on my wife.

if i could, i would change my timing of doing so, but its just the way it has happened.

waiting

Hey Winston,

think I may have literally heard my eyeballs hit the inside of my skull as I rolled my eyes back.

You're so funny. If you can manage to keep your sense of humor & make your wife laugh some....it'll help tremendously. I'm glad you're helping her get professional help. Hugs, sunshine, pets - they all help too.

Btw, my son's been on Welbutrin (sp?) for a while. He changed psych. & was in for the first time with newbie. Our family chuckles over our side of the family's mental history - a way to survive.

Dr: Does depression run in your family?

Son: Nooooooooooo, depravity does, however.

He says it's fun to watch their initial reaction as he recollects his family tree. Humor keeps us centered.

68

Who's To Blame For The Child Abuse Problem?

by Englishman in

just trying to get my head around this one.

with the jailing last week of a london dub paedophile, i was wondering: .

is it the religion itself that gives these perverts the feeling that they are invincible and immune from punishment when they commit these acts?

waiting

Hello amac,

The only fault I can see in the WT is that they are very close knit socially and single mothers will have more people they "trust" then if they are on their own. -amac

"Close knit socially" and a "closed society" are two different things, whether speaking of a family, a congregation, or a country. They may overlap, as there are close knit social clicks in the WT.....but the WT itself is a closed society - and one can't leave openly without punishment.

It's not that single mothers "trust" more people. It's that parents (and disproportionately high percentage of single mothers) are TAUGHT to trust the brothers & sisters more....."new mother, father, brother, sisters". We were told that would make up for the fleshly family we lost when we entered into the WT. Remember? We were told that we were in a Spiritual Paradise right here on the earth.

I've been in at least 6 cong. in 32 yrs. There's always those mothers who don't go out in service, but the brothers are nice enough to come get their boys to go with them. Whether it's one or more brothers. It's quite common. And it could be quite innocent too. How does one tell? There are also the mothers in the group who really appreciate someone helping them with their too many kids, particularily a seemingly (or real) nice, spiritual brother/sister.

Single sisters with kids are some of the lonliest, put-upon, always trying, always failing, people around. No matter what they do, it's never good enough - and they're second class, period. They lack adult interaction, and their kids lack interaction all the way around. Damn straight they'd jump at the chance to have someone show an interest in their kids.

Now add in that even if a man is found guilty of child abuse by elders.......the parent & child must NEVER speak about it to anyone.....less they be brought up on charges of slander...
I, personally, have found this NOT to be true. - amac

I, personally, a mother of a sexually abused child by a brother, have found this TO BE true. I was a single mother with 3 kids at the time also. After I'd gone through the local elders, CO, letter to Society, which bounced back to another CO....the CO visited me. That early 90's WT in hand (one with Job's wife telling him to curse God) - which dealt with child abuse and memory. He made it clear to me if I didn't stop speaking about it - because nothing could be done - I would be guilty of slander.

Btw, I know this happens in families with two parents also......but many jw single mothers with kids are just needy in so many ways. I knew many of them over the years. They are a great group of women, always trying.

waiting

ps - thanks, Eman & Odrade - I just never thought of this in context of the setting before.