Uhhhh.....
Idon'thaveanyideawhatyou'retalkingabout
Sorry. ?? Linkage ??
Posts by Xander
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15Going to Burning Man?
by ThiChi inany list members going to burning man (burningman.com) the week of august 26th?
i will be camping at the vw bus camp, which this year is real close to center camp!.
next year, we should apply for our own apostate camp and offer cult de-programming!.
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26
Chances of life Life on mars!!
by haujobbz in.
"life on mars" mmm i wonder what jws would say on the matter,maybe adam and eve visited mars( just joking).anyway what do you think, will they find life on mars.
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Xander
as far as I understand it the evolution has never been proven fact
Wrong - it has been proven fact.
Evolution = fact. It happens. We can SEE it happen.
Abiogenesis = verdict still out on this one
I have read some sound proof that DNA prevents organisms from mutating
I'd be REAL interested in your source for this. Let me save you some time - if you read this in an Awake!, don't bother posting it.
Evolution IMO is merely a belief that was thought up by atheists
Then you'd be wrong.
unsubstantiated in the fossil record or through any visual evidence
Wrong on both counts - the fossil record is very clear on its support of evolution - and, as I mentioned, we can observer evolution happening in small organisms ALL THE TIME. Insects, viruses, bacteria, etc. regularly evolve fast enough for us to observe it.
I am still feeling moisture running down my leg and it still doesn't seem to be raining .
(no proper emoticon for this one) - uhhh....try diapers?
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123
Pro-Life or Pro-Choice--HELP
by Quincy inok...3 days ago, i found out that i was going to be a father!!
good new right?
well then she says that she is considering having an abortion...which i am totally against....so we discussed it...then she started to think that she might have the child....so she talked it over with her twin sister...and she told her to get the abortion...now she says she wants the abortion...now i am upset...not onlly does she want the abortion...but she wants me to pay for the entire thing...so not only am i going to be terminating a developing life...but i have to pay for it????
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Xander
DNA has no rights, only an animal with human DNA has human rights
OK, so now we're getting somewhere. So this depends on how you define animal
Better phrased: WHEN do you define something as an 'animal'. I still maintain a fetus is no animal, human or otherwise.
Perhaps it would help if you ACTUALLY ANSWERED MY QUESTION.
Let me rephrase it to make it easier to understand:
What criteria other than having human DNA (which we have already established, I think, as not enough criteria on its own) --- what other criteria is needed for something to be 'human' enough that we should be concerned about its rights, in your opinion?
I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
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58
Would you condone abortion?
by haujobbz intoday i questioned my mother about the fact that she told me ?
yrs ago how she lost 2 kids through a miscarriage but then later told me she aborted them,well i didnt know what to say, but then later questioned her about this i asked her why she did it, she told me that she was already bringing up me and my sister and financialy impossible to look after two more kids,well i didnt agree with that reason or any reason to kill the unborn she then said she wasnt in the truth then "huh what difference does that make".
then she gave an illustration of reasons when you should condone abortion and it goes like this, if you were raped and later found out you were pregnant what would you do she seemed to say she would abort it,i said i wouldnt if that happened to my wife i said i would probably end up having it adopted,after all its better than murder.. how has this affected my familys view on abortion i wonder, well i have 5 sisters and 1 more brother,and already my brother in cold blood made his girlfriend abort hers due to the inconvienience,and also my older sister had hers aborted 2 yrs ago because the father didnt want to know with out a hint of regret,so im now starting to see a pattern in my family,whos to blame them or my mother as a role model.. so to cut a long story short do you think killing an unborn child is murder,would you do it under certain scenarios.
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Xander
- Accidental pregnancy from an inexperienced young girl.
- Pregnancy resulting from rape is one.
- Deformity is another.
- Life and death issues for the health of both is yet another.
I have a problem with all of these, though.
The overriding implication is that abortion is morally wrong although it can be emotionally justified in some cases.
The problem is (as has been shown in many places): if your decision to abort is based on emotional justifications of something you've let someone convince you is wrong, it opens the door for religious fundamentalists later to guilt you into feeling you've sinned/murdered/etc.
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123
Pro-Life or Pro-Choice--HELP
by Quincy inok...3 days ago, i found out that i was going to be a father!!
good new right?
well then she says that she is considering having an abortion...which i am totally against....so we discussed it...then she started to think that she might have the child....so she talked it over with her twin sister...and she told her to get the abortion...now she says she wants the abortion...now i am upset...not onlly does she want the abortion...but she wants me to pay for the entire thing...so not only am i going to be terminating a developing life...but i have to pay for it????
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Xander
to kill part of a person
You are completely ignoring his question.
We say 'fetus isn't human because it is not a soul'.
You reply 'fetus IS human because it has human DNA'
We counter 'so a skin tissue must deserve the same protection'
You then say 'skin is not human, though'
IOW: Make up your mind! Does having human DNA alone make you human or not? Is not something else needed? I say yes. You say no and then yes and then no.
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58
Would you condone abortion?
by haujobbz intoday i questioned my mother about the fact that she told me ?
yrs ago how she lost 2 kids through a miscarriage but then later told me she aborted them,well i didnt know what to say, but then later questioned her about this i asked her why she did it, she told me that she was already bringing up me and my sister and financialy impossible to look after two more kids,well i didnt agree with that reason or any reason to kill the unborn she then said she wasnt in the truth then "huh what difference does that make".
then she gave an illustration of reasons when you should condone abortion and it goes like this, if you were raped and later found out you were pregnant what would you do she seemed to say she would abort it,i said i wouldnt if that happened to my wife i said i would probably end up having it adopted,after all its better than murder.. how has this affected my familys view on abortion i wonder, well i have 5 sisters and 1 more brother,and already my brother in cold blood made his girlfriend abort hers due to the inconvienience,and also my older sister had hers aborted 2 yrs ago because the father didnt want to know with out a hint of regret,so im now starting to see a pattern in my family,whos to blame them or my mother as a role model.. so to cut a long story short do you think killing an unborn child is murder,would you do it under certain scenarios.
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Xander
then the answer stays nothing and we should be able to kill anyone because it is an arbitrary decision from that point forwards, isn't it?
I disagree, and that was my point.
That a group of cells LOOK human, or MIGHT SOMEDAY BECOME human, or even HAVE HUMAN DNA is not enough to give it the same protection as, say, an adult human deserves.
It has to *actually be* human to get the protection law gives to humans. And that doesn't happen at conception. 1 single fertilized egg IS NOT A HUMAN BEING.
I think a good yardstick to determine if something IS human is if it has a human mind. Fetuses eventually DO develop one. Some 30 weeks into pregnancy.
If you have ever talked to a woman who has had an abortion, she will most likely tell you that she has never forgiven herself for killing her baby. Most can tell you the day and the year she did that.
Now, seriously, the moment she has said abortion - is she immediately overwhelmed with guilt and an inability to forgive herself?
Or does it take religion and/or family pressure laying layer after layer of guilt on her telling her that women who abort have murdered a human life (despite any scientific evidence to back their claim - which religion has never really relied on, anyway)?
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58
Would you condone abortion?
by haujobbz intoday i questioned my mother about the fact that she told me ?
yrs ago how she lost 2 kids through a miscarriage but then later told me she aborted them,well i didnt know what to say, but then later questioned her about this i asked her why she did it, she told me that she was already bringing up me and my sister and financialy impossible to look after two more kids,well i didnt agree with that reason or any reason to kill the unborn she then said she wasnt in the truth then "huh what difference does that make".
then she gave an illustration of reasons when you should condone abortion and it goes like this, if you were raped and later found out you were pregnant what would you do she seemed to say she would abort it,i said i wouldnt if that happened to my wife i said i would probably end up having it adopted,after all its better than murder.. how has this affected my familys view on abortion i wonder, well i have 5 sisters and 1 more brother,and already my brother in cold blood made his girlfriend abort hers due to the inconvienience,and also my older sister had hers aborted 2 yrs ago because the father didnt want to know with out a hint of regret,so im now starting to see a pattern in my family,whos to blame them or my mother as a role model.. so to cut a long story short do you think killing an unborn child is murder,would you do it under certain scenarios.
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Xander
it is the fetilized egg's POTENTIAL to have "consciousness/self-awareness/sentience/soul" that is the most important factor
That is a fairly common argument. I happen to disagree with it in this case, however. As mentioned in the other thread, 80% of those fertilized eggs fail to 'take' and pass out anyway.
Indeed, even if it DOES take, there is no guarantee that it will receive all the nutrients it needs in order to become a human. IOW, without outside influence - there is NO potential to become sentient. (Or else cloning would be a WHOLE LOT EASIER).
Ditto with sperm and eggs. They have the potential to be human, no? Yet, without outside influence (first, the presence of the complementary reproductive cell, then the presence of a suitable host, then the presence of suitable nutrition, then, then, then, etc...) they amount to nothing.
Similarly....
Example person A has the potential to become a serial killer. Does this mean they should be executed today? Well, no, because they're not a serial killer now.
Edited by - Xander on 12 August 2002 18:44:16
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58
Would you condone abortion?
by haujobbz intoday i questioned my mother about the fact that she told me ?
yrs ago how she lost 2 kids through a miscarriage but then later told me she aborted them,well i didnt know what to say, but then later questioned her about this i asked her why she did it, she told me that she was already bringing up me and my sister and financialy impossible to look after two more kids,well i didnt agree with that reason or any reason to kill the unborn she then said she wasnt in the truth then "huh what difference does that make".
then she gave an illustration of reasons when you should condone abortion and it goes like this, if you were raped and later found out you were pregnant what would you do she seemed to say she would abort it,i said i wouldnt if that happened to my wife i said i would probably end up having it adopted,after all its better than murder.. how has this affected my familys view on abortion i wonder, well i have 5 sisters and 1 more brother,and already my brother in cold blood made his girlfriend abort hers due to the inconvienience,and also my older sister had hers aborted 2 yrs ago because the father didnt want to know with out a hint of regret,so im now starting to see a pattern in my family,whos to blame them or my mother as a role model.. so to cut a long story short do you think killing an unborn child is murder,would you do it under certain scenarios.
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Xander
Read the other thread.
Read my post.
Not difficult to miss my position on the topic. With no consciousness/self-awareness/sentience/soul, it's not human. If it's not human, it can be treated the exact same way we treat ANYTHING ELSE that's not human. IE., life or death at our convenience, but with respect to the natural world.
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Would you condone abortion?
by haujobbz intoday i questioned my mother about the fact that she told me ?
yrs ago how she lost 2 kids through a miscarriage but then later told me she aborted them,well i didnt know what to say, but then later questioned her about this i asked her why she did it, she told me that she was already bringing up me and my sister and financialy impossible to look after two more kids,well i didnt agree with that reason or any reason to kill the unborn she then said she wasnt in the truth then "huh what difference does that make".
then she gave an illustration of reasons when you should condone abortion and it goes like this, if you were raped and later found out you were pregnant what would you do she seemed to say she would abort it,i said i wouldnt if that happened to my wife i said i would probably end up having it adopted,after all its better than murder.. how has this affected my familys view on abortion i wonder, well i have 5 sisters and 1 more brother,and already my brother in cold blood made his girlfriend abort hers due to the inconvienience,and also my older sister had hers aborted 2 yrs ago because the father didnt want to know with out a hint of regret,so im now starting to see a pattern in my family,whos to blame them or my mother as a role model.. so to cut a long story short do you think killing an unborn child is murder,would you do it under certain scenarios.
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Xander
Try this thread:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=34199&site=3
Same topic. Same arguments. Gets old.
Here's a better question.
I'm assuming you don't think it's murder when a women menstrates, right? And a guy...uhhh...relieving pressure isn't murder either, right?
So, the two cells on their own are not a child?
BUT...they bump into each other:
OH NO! Suddenly it's murder if they are destroyed!
Right?
Well, when, then?
Edited by - Xander on 12 August 2002 18:23:51
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Pro-Life or Pro-Choice--HELP
by Quincy inok...3 days ago, i found out that i was going to be a father!!
good new right?
well then she says that she is considering having an abortion...which i am totally against....so we discussed it...then she started to think that she might have the child....so she talked it over with her twin sister...and she told her to get the abortion...now she says she wants the abortion...now i am upset...not onlly does she want the abortion...but she wants me to pay for the entire thing...so not only am i going to be terminating a developing life...but i have to pay for it????
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Xander
My point being that everyone acknowledges that a fetus is most likely going to be born into a human being that is conscious (or self-aware, or that has a soul).
How can you base your entire argument on the premise that something cannot be done if it MIGHT result in human life?
I mean, does that mean male masturbation is wrong? Since sperm could, in the right circumstances, become a human?
It doesn't matter how you look at it, it is LIFE that is being aborted.
And that is why I asked about the vegetarian thing. I mean, if 'life' is all that is important. I don't think 'life' alone is. That something could or could not eventually become a human is irrelevant.
What matters in order for this to be a homicide is: is it a human NOW? And, it's not. At least until week 30 or so when we start seeing brainwaves you might deduce are human.
human life as anything having human DNA
I think that seems to be the assumption, and I believe it is wrong.
Having human DNA does not make you 'human'. Cancer cells have 'human DNA'. As your example - skin in a petri dish has 'human DNA'. A corpse has 'human DNA'. I could go on and on. DNA alone does not a 'human' make.
What DOES make a human is the 'soul,' or self-awareness (or ki or whatever else you want to call it).
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Just a question to those 'pro-lifers' here. If a baby has a specific birth defect (Anencephaly) and is born with no brain, is it 'human'? (Not literally no brain - just no cerebral cortex). It has all the genetic code of a 'human'. Might even be technically alive. You could certainly put it on life support and extend it's life quite some time. Human?
By your definition of 'human' - you have to answer 'yes' and try to make it live. Doing otherwise is immoral, no?
