Joelbear
I think this is so funny because you are firing questions at me faster than I can reply, and do a little reading on the side as well. Ha! I haven’t even had time to reply to the latter part of your previous post, and here I am hit with more questions. Ha, ha! But don’t take that wrong, because I think you’re questions are logical and interesting. And I’m beginning to appreciate your scholastic abilities a bit more, and see how you did apply yourself in your school years. But you are mistaken, Joelbear, if you think that I assume to know it all. Because I’m not so foolish as to claim that.
where does the Bible indicate this difference specifically between the little flock and the other sheep.
You mean directly? Or by inference? The difference lies in the idea of “holiness”, Joelbear. Those of the “little flock”, the 144K, have achieved a purity of heart and dedication for doing Jehovah’s will which, for the time being, the other sheep have much work to do on. I suppose it might be compared to the difference between pure water and tainted water. Because there is no question about whether those who truly are of the “little flock” class have perfected holiness, there will be no necessity to subject them to the same trial (at the end of the millennium) as those face whom will either have lived through Armageddon or been resurrected (who will, by that time, have been the beneficiaries of Jesus priestly care). That’s because they have ALREADY withstood such tests in THIS lifetime. They had dedicated their lives to Jehovah, and lived up to that dedication even in the face of fiery trials … trials, that if necessary, these ones would remain faithful even if it meant that their blood would be spilled at the hands of those who oppose. (See Revelation 6:10 and 20:4) Actually, I don’t know why I’m making scriptural references for YOU … because I’m sure you’ve read the Bible and are familiar with it.
Also, I assume by holyness, you are saying that these 144,000 actually become perfect before they die?
Hopefully I made that clear enough above. You speak of becoming “perfect”. I think that’s because of the lingo you picked up during your tenure as a Witness. Not to say that it’s so terribly bad, but it doesn’t seem to get to the bottom of things. I see the term “holiness”, Joelbear, as meaning that its possessor can’t be corrupted under any circumstances. You’ll have to admit, that if everybody alive was “holy” then what a wonderful world that would make. And such a thing is in fact Jehovah’s ultimate goal. With all said and done, everyone who enjoys the breath of life will have perfected holiness. That’s when Jesus hands the kingdom back to his father. Then both, the angelic heaven and mankind, will live everlastingly under the kingship of God himself … thus, everything having been restored to what it was in the beginning. So, when Jesus taught us to pray “Let
your kingdom come” he meant just that.
God’s Kingdom is what we are anxiously awaiting. Jesus reign is simply a necessary prelude to getting there.
I hope that you’ll visit my personal web site after I’ve finished uploading some written material which is to go along with some images that I’ve created and already posted there, Joelbear. I’m specifically talking about this page:- http://4heavens.homestead.com/21.html With the aid of the images you’ll see there, try to grasp the idea that you’re sitting way out in empty space peering back at God’s huge, huge universe … the entire cosmos … and all that live therein, angels and man alike, willingly submitting to God’s will. Because everything has been put back in order, a "new heavens and a new earth" as it were. Christ’s millennial reign is long past. Can you see God’s "Kingdom" there, Joelbear? Can you “see” God on his throne with all creation in willing subjection to his righteous will … hence, God’s Kingdom? If you can “see” that, you’re really not looking at anything unique, because that’s the way it was in the beginning, before Satan corrupted it all, before Satan caused the fall of both man and angel. So what I’m saying, is that God’s Kingdom prevailed once before … until Satan entered the picture. Therefore, the "kingdom” that we await, in answer to that which Jesus taught us to pray for, is nothing more than the rule of God, which, before the fall of Man and Angel, all that lived at one time in the distant past subjected themselves to. So you see that there's a distinction to be made between Christ's 1000-year reign and that of God's Kingdom. One might say that Jesus' reign restores God's Kingdom.
This whole line of thinking regarding the 144,000 represents a fairly wide swing from Watchtower theology. Could the "truth" miss the mark that far and still be the "truth".
Yes! Because the “truth” has more to do with holiness than perfection of doctrine. That’s something that I’m doubtful the WTS has made clear enough throughout the years. Usually, we tend to think of truth merely in terms of perfect doctrinal understanding. I’m afraid that’s not all there is to it though.
Another matter on justice is this:
God creates thousands, millions, perhaps billions of angels. Some of them disobey him and are punished. The faithful angels are not punished or subjected to tests because unfaithful angels fall away.
God creates one human pair who disobey him. Billions of human beings are punished and have to be tested because of the unfaithfulness of 2 humans.
This is one of the concepts that is at the heart of my doubts. It is totally illogical and injust.
The answer lies partially in the fact that the angels didn’t originate from a common ancestor angelic being. In other words the angels had no angelic father, they were each created separately. So, THEY didn’t have to rely upon a “father” to instruct them in the ways of righteousness ... like WE do. Instead, they had all been taught by their Creator, Jehovah (through Michael/Jesus of course). When some sinned they had nothing to blame it on but themselves, given the fact that they were fully mature beings and had been perfectly taught. In the case of mankind though, we each had a progenitor. Unlike the angels, each of us depend upon our human father for proper upbringing. If our father doesn’t know what’s perfectly best for us, or is negligent in providing it, then we suffer. When Adam demonstrated a lack of appreciation for God’s directives (thereby having “sinned”) he was thereafter not in a position to give his children all that they needed in the way of instruction. Notwithstanding the fact that he had his hands occupied with the chores of putting bread on the table, he found it impossible to cultivate an appreciation for God into his children’s hearts because of his having shown that he didn’t have it himself. You can’t give to others something you don’t possess yourself. Hence, although Abel’s righteous inclinations demonstrate that Adam surely must have put forth at least some effort in giving his children proper instruction, even so, Adam had become severely handicapped in his ability to do a good job, especially given his new circumstances which required so much time and strength in providing for the material needs of all … himself, wife, and all the many, many children that came along. (They didn't have condoms in those days.
)
Why didn't god just fill the earth with perfect human beings and punish those who chose knowingly not to serve him.... Man suffers, therefore there has to be an explanation for the suffering, so you create a myth to provide the explanation.
I think that what I’ve already said addresses this to a great degree. But no, God created angels to be
spirit creatures, even as he created man to be
fleshly creatures. They are two separate species, if you will. The one (the angels) he created each individually. The other (man) were each designed to come into existence as the progeny of a father. And as I’ve already said, but will repeat for emphasis, the one (the angels) were independent of one another insofar as needed instruction; but the other (man) had to rely upon the one that caused their birth, namely each one’s father.
No "myth" to it, Joelbear. It's all true.
I hope this is understandable, Joelbear. Perhaps I will get back to the rest of your post from yesterday later this evening.
I came back to touch up a little for the sake of clarity, and correct some misspellings etc.
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
