how do you think the actor for the rev.
erik camden does the part of a true christian?
not only the actor but the part he playes.. .
wonderwoman77
Yes, I figured as much although I've never watched it. Anyway I was just making a play on it for the sake of humor, plus to make a point about a truth that I discovered about there truly being four heavens.
Thanks,
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
CatholicGuy
I'm still a bit curious about something you said. The words you used to express your thought, rather than being specific, were somewhat ambiguous. You asserted that "the traditional Christian understanding does not "dispense with the earth." Are you referencing a)the very earth we now live on? Or just b)the idea of some sort of an "earth" in general ... in reality then a different globe or planet called "earth"? If your answer is "b", I really find that hard to accept. In view of you saying that the traditional Christian understanding doesn't dispense with the earth, I must say that in all my many years of living on THIS "earth" I've seldom heard the churches talk about anything other than "going to heaven". Considering that there's going to be a new heavens and a new earth, and since all "Christians" are going to “heaven” -- then what's our PRESENT earth going to be used for? Or for that matter, if an entirely different earth, or globe were being referred to then what's THAT earth going to be used for if all the "saved" are going to inherit the new heaven, aka "Heaven"?
Really, isn’t the very opposite of what you’ve said the truth of the matter? Rather than the other way around, the traditional view of Christendom is indeed the dispensing of the “earth” since they rarely express any hope other than that of going home to "heaven”.
Interesting! No?
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
how do you think the actor for the rev.
erik camden does the part of a true christian?
not only the actor but the part he playes.. .
Wiltshire
"Seven" heavens? Absolutely false, 100% untrue! There are only four heavens ... 3 + 1 (earth's atmosphere) = FOUR, not 7. (3 + 4 = 7, Pinocchio ... NOT 3 + 1.) The web page that shows it in graphic detail.- http://4heavens.homestead.com/21.html (Three images in all.)
Before too much longer, I hope, I will upload the explanation of it all to accompany those images. THEN, you will see it too. You too will see that there indeed are four heavens.
BTW, how many here know that the apostle Paul visited the realm of the angels, referred to as the "third heaven"? Anybody?
You really ought to get a conscience, Wiltshire. I mean, lying and all about how that 3 + 1 = 7. Sheesh!
- 
Hi-Diddle-Dee-Dee,
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
i started to reflect on it the other day how it was like,some great honor to go down there,and be jammed into this tiny space with maybe eight others and try to play cards or some board game.
and try to be quiet at the same time.nice view of the city though.
i used to think of all the people down there who spend so much on rent,or a mortgage to live down there and the bethelites basically live there for free.
Knight
the bethelites basically live there for free.No they don't. They work every day that they're there. In other words they contribute something for their room and board, even as you do for your own paycheck = room & board. Surely you don't think that the small allowance they receive pays for all the hard work they each do.
Yadirf,
who can just hear 'em all now, saying:
"Yeah, and that's another thing ...."
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
ok what is it with male jw's and guitars?
it seems like it's a badge of spirituality or something.
you go to a congregation bbq or something, and there's always at least three brothers sitting around endlessly playing the same few chords over and over again.
Expatbrat
If you've just gotta learn "three chords" on the Gitter, then here's a page that was designed precisely with you in mind.
- http://www.kidsdrawn.de/guitar/
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
ok what is it with male jw's and guitars?
it seems like it's a badge of spirituality or something.
you go to a congregation bbq or something, and there's always at least three brothers sitting around endlessly playing the same few chords over and over again.
Hey TR, I believe your "signature" affixed right smack dab at the bottom of that picture of you *trying* to play the Gitter is right smack dab on the money. So, when are ya gonna start doing sumpin, and stop the "nothing" that you're shown there doing?
Yadirf,
who used to be able to play "Charade" on his Gitter,
just like Chet Atkins showed him (out of a tabulature song book).
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
CatholicGuy
My belief is that the only changes which our physical earth will undergo is that any damage which has resulted since Adam's rebellion (i.e. pollution etc.) will be overcome. Of course, the paradise conditions that would've been attained had Adam remained faithful to God's instruction regarding not eating from the tree will still be realized. What part of that do you not agree with?
Your words, as I've quoted them below, don't particularly seem to clash with my opinion of things.
The present heaven and earth will be transformed. How much of a continuity between the old heavens and old earth and the new heavens and the new earth there will be we don't know. It will be more than just a rehabilitation of mankind. Scripture indicates creation itself will be renewed.Nice chatting with you.
Thanks,
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
aChristian
The scriptures you site (in Matthew and Revelation) do NOT mean what you attempt to derive from them. Too, you surely seem to place an excessive amount of faith in what “science” claims will happen to our sun. True, science, or rather I should say TRUE science, has impressed the world with some rather fabulous things. For example: I was absolutely flabbergasted when I was privileged to see what the planets in our solar system look like up relatively close, as was made possible by the use of space probes. Yes, that was a great accomplishment by SCIENCE and technology. However, scientists and technicians have about as much chance of knowing that our sun will “explode” as my puppy knows that his life will end someday. Get real, will you people! Stop buying all the crap that the “gods” of science and technology throw out at you. True, they have definitely learned some wonderful things. One thing though that they haven’t learned so good, is how to keep their feet on the ground and their heads out of the clouds. Don’t be fooled into accepting everything that’s claimed simply out of being over-awed by their impressive accomplishments.
Right now I’ve not the time to go into a discussion with you on how the “new heavens and earth” is to be properly understood. I will say though that this is the very subject that I have at the top of my agenda, to work up a document about and share it with the WTS. I plan to do that because not even they are correct about all the details. Once I’m finished, and have it on the way to the WTS, I will likely upload the information to my personal web site. If you wish, you can go there and look it over. I think that you’ll see something that you’ve never heard before.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CatholicGuy
Thanks for providing the information you posted. But I don’t find it so very clear. I like information, but I hate having to dig through what a person quotes someone else as having said, all the while trying to decipher what you YOURSELF believe. I would’ve preferred that you simply said what YOU think, in your own words. Or at least summarized it all in your own words. So, if you would, in a nutshell, what do you think it all says in view of the question I asked aChristian? I asked: Are you claiming that our present earth will LITERALLY be replaced by an entirely separate "new earth"? Can you CLEARLY answer that question? In your opinion: Is our present earth one day going to no longer figure into things? Is it due to be eliminated? Destroyed? Do you think that there will be a “new earth” as the result of mankind having been rehabilitated? What say you, exactly?
Also, see the last paragraph in my comments to aChristian.
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
Sorry to have returned and edited my post so many, many times. I think that I've finally got it like I want it. Don't worry, it still bears at least some resemblence to its original.
Yadirf,
who wonders how many's left
of his 25 per day allotment.
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
a few weks ago, the bible student group i affiliate with had their annual convention.
the convention itself has been uplaoded to the net.
there is an interesting panel discussion on revelation 7 on the identity of the 144,000 and the great crowd.
I think Joelbear asked an excellent question here. He asked:
Why did god put people on earth to begin with if he was just going to end up taking some to heaven?
In other words, if *some* of mankind are destined to live forever in Heaven, why did God put ANYONE here on earth to begin with? Why didn't God simply make Heaven everyone's home, and dispense with this EARTHLY existence altogether? I think that Joelbear's question helps to make clear the fact that the idea about going to heaven as entertained both by Christendom and the WTS is problematic.
Christendom believes that ALL the "saved" will go to Heaven to forever live with God. This is an error of course because her scenario eventually dispenses with the earth.
The WTS believes that a certain number will go to Heaven to forever live with God. There is an error here too … not the idea that only a comparatively few will go to heaven, but that those who do so will stay there FOREVER. Which doesn't make a lot of sense! Why? Because if the abode of *some* from among mankind can be transferred to Heaven, then why not ALL of them. Hence, the question arises again: Why didn't God simply make Heaven everyone's home to begin with, and dispense with this earthly existence altogether.
Of course I personally have argued for quite some time now that the 144,000 who do go to Heaven, in order to rule alongside Christ for the 1000 years, are going to be there for ONLY that long of a period ... 1000 years total. This DOES make sense, and answers the question that Joelbear has posed. But most importantly this is what the Bible REALLY teaches. How so? Look at the Revelation account. Notice: The 20th chapter ends with the 1000-year reign of Christ having concluded. The 21st chapter begins with Christ's bride, New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven. Coming down out of Heaven and going to where? Returning to earth of course. So after they have finished their work in Heaven the 144,000 will be on their way back to earth to live once again as humans. MAKES SENSE! Hence, this proves that nothing has been permanently changed from the way God originally made everything: God made spirit creatures (angels) to live in a spiritual abode (Heaven), and he made fleshly creatures (mankind) to live in a material abode (earth). At the end of the 1000 years only angels and God himself will occupy the spirit realm, Heaven; and those men who were born here at earth will have returned to their original abode, the earth. In the end, nobody from earth that ever went to Heaven will have remained there.
So, I've demonstrated that those who DO go to Heaven are not bound to forever remain there. And this solves the mystery of it all, as well as answers the question that Joelbear brings to the table.
aChristian
You said:
Since heaven and earth as we now know them will then no longer even exist,No longer exist? In what sense? Are you claiming that our present earth will LITERALLY be replaced by an entirely separate "new earth"? That's what you appear to be saying. If that's the case, then you are greatly mistaken my man!
Too, with regards to you saying: "heaven as we know it". Would you care to explain exactly how it is that WE humans "know" Heaven. We've never been there. We've never seen pictures of Heaven. We've never heard any explanation of what it's like there. So how is it that we "know it", as you say?
Yadirf
PS> Isn't it interesting to consider: If Adam had never sinned in the first place there would've been absolutely no necessity for anyone going to Heaven. This would mean that those 144,000 would've forever HAD to be content with an earthly existence. Right? RIGHT!!! The discussion in progress here in this thread has lent itself real, REAL well towards proving my contention that the 144,000 -- once they've finished their tenure in Heaven as kings and priests with Christ -- they will return to earth to resume their lives as the HUMANS they were always meant to be.
Daniel 11:35 ... a prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
