FRIDAY, Don't you want to handle this one, come now, what is the theocratic line?
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]
Yerusalyim
JoinedPosts by Yerusalyim
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6
Why do JWs still celebrate Memorial
by Theo Cratz init has always puzzled me why jehovah's witnesses still celebrate the memorial.
after all if it says in 1 corinthians 11:26.
"for as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclaim the lord's death till he returns".
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Yerusalyim
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What about the poisitve things learned?
by aud8 inwhat about the biblical truths explined by the witnesses?
yes there are many things wrong with the organisation, but they did get a lot right - trinity, hell etc etc is anyone grateful for some of the teachings they received whilst being a witness?.
aud8
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Yerusalyim
Those points you say the Society got right, Trinity, hell, etc, etc, I say the society is dead wrong on. Not much TRUTH to the "truth".
Yeru
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
69
Christmas Star = Satan?!
by reagan_oconnor ini was talking with my husband the other day about the jw's belief that the "christmas star" that guided the magi to christ was the doings of satan.
he didn't believe me; this is what i found in the "my book of bible stories" (copied verbatim from cd-rom).
who do you think made that new star to shine?
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Yerusalyim
Took a while to relply, couldn't get on to my server yesterday.
Friday, you said,
quote:
While ignoring the personal attack which is so out of place with christian debate, I ask you, WHERE exactly was this scriptural evidence? I sure don't remember you offering one shred of evidence fromt he bible, just you opinion. So, again, SHOW IT TO ME IN SCRIPTURE. I can indeed offer you Isaiah 60 and it holds. Isaiah 60 is clearly speaking of Messiah, IS 60:6 clearly mentions Gold and Frankincense being brought to Messiah, and Matt 2 clearly mentions Gold and Frankincense being brought to Jesus. Unless you can show me another place in scripture where Gold and Frankincense is brought to Jesus from people from the East, then the coming of the Magi MUST be the fulfillment of the prophecy in Isaiah 60; case closed.
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Let's try it this way, Show me from scripture where the star and the coming of the magi are of satan. It can't be done.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------You're ridiculous, Yeru. That's done been done. That's what I have already done. You are just too dim witted to realize it.
Now, I'm going to go back to the rest of your posts and read them. I only ask that when you reply you stay away from personal attacks which are so unbecoming a true Christian.
Also, dear friday, you said,
The fact is, Yeru, is that YOU haven't ears to hear the Bibles many truths.
I hear bible truth quite well Friday, I just have little tolerance for the lies told by the society and instantly believed without criticism by "sheep"Do not use THIS particular point/issue as another diversion tactic to avert attention off the many things that you should have already answered, but didn’t. OF COURSE the “star” led them to Jerusalem, by reason of the fact that it pointed them in the direction of THAT city. How else do you suppose that they knew that the “king” that was supposedly born was to be king of the Jews?
"We have seen his star in the East and come to worship him" Sounds to me as if they knew while they were still OUTSIDE of Israel, that they knew what country to go to. The bible does NOT in fact, say that the star led them to Jerusalem, it was the diplomatic thing to do to go to Jerusalem.You’re not citing the Bible accurately, Yeru. (Will you be honest enough to admit that? Or will you conveniently ignore it like you did all the times up above.) You are ignoring the fact that the “star” was first seen again by the Magi upon their leaving out of Jerusalem:
No, I am citing the bible accurately, the star preceeded or went ahead of them, not led them, to where the child lay. When Jesus was resurrected, he "went ahead" of the disciples to Galilee. Now when Jesus said this, he wasn't IN Jerusalem, but outside the city, and he didn't LEAD the disciples to Galilee, but went there before them. So if the bible says the star "went ahead" or "proceeded" the magi, and that they were "overjoyed" when they saw the star (as it came to rest over the place where the child lay), it stands to reason that while the Magi were in Jerusalem they did not have sight of the star, that it wasn't leading them. Herod DIRECTED them to Bethlehem, which he would not have had to do had they stayed with the star. Lots of conjecture on your part, and not much scripture.What proof do you have of that … the mere fact that you find the words frankincense and gold mentioned there? That fact alone doesn’t prove what you would wish that it did, Yeru. I suggested that to you previously. Also I keep asking you to explain, starting with verse one, the context that surrounds that verse; and keep stressing that it’s YOUR responsibility to demonstrate that you understand it all so as to justify having a claim such as you do. But so far you continue to ignore the fact that such a responsibility rests in your lap, because it is YOU that says that the 6th verse means such and such
Am I to assume by this that you do not recognize Isaiah 60 as speaking of Messiah? Have you actually READ the book of Isaiah? Almost all of Isaiah deals with the coming of Messiah. Chapter 59 and 60 speak directly to Messiah. The Jews have long recognized that fact, and it's clear from the context (oh, sorry, context never seems to matter to the society) SO again, show me some other place in the New Testament where anyone from the east brings gold and fankincense to Jesus other than Matt 2. Oh, that's right, there isn't any other place this prophecy of Messiah is fulfilled. NO MATTER, we'll accept the Society's proclaimation in spite of scripture!I’ve already explained how unreasonable it would be to conclude that such “star” was in fact a literal star. ...And yes, I would suggest that the Bible be taken “at it’s word” … but then again, to understand it correctly isn't failing to do that. Instead, it’s doing so all the more.
By "correctly don't you mean to say "as the Society understands it" Was it a real "star" in the sense of a large gaseous cloud on fire? I don't know. But it was a REAL object, and not just an apparition. Again, I see no where in scripture that gives Satan the ability to create, only to create illusions, not real actual things. The bible calls it a star, I take it to be a real THING, not an illusion created by Satan.As to the “star” (Gr., a·ster') seen by them, many suggestions have been given as to its having been a comet, a meteor, a supernova, or, more popularly, a conjunction of planets. None of such bodies could logically have ‘come to a stop above where the young child was,’ thereby identifying the one house in the village of Bethlehem where the child was found. It is also notable that only these pagan astrologers “saw” the star.
The Society is now an expert on ancient astrological practices? We have no way of determining how the Magi precieved the star coming to rest over where the child lay.
YeruI had made the point that if the “star” had been of God’s doing, then, since He would have obviously known beforehand that all those infants were destined to die as a result of that star having led the Magi to Herod, then God Himself therefore would be the one to blame for the deaths of all the children that were slaughtered.
You would blame God for the death of these children IF he created the star, yet you don't blame God for the death of BILLIONS because God created a tree that Satan used to pervert man? That makes NO SENSE at all. Why does God get the blame if he made the star, but doesn't get the blame for the billions even though he DID make the tree? NO LOGIC THERE AT ALL ACCEPT SOCIETY LOGIC ( which is no logic at all). You have yet to prove that the star led the Magi to Herod, I draw from scripture that it did NOT. Also, you forget the relative proximity of Bethlehem to Jerusalem. Jerusalem was almost certainly on the route from the East to Bethlehem.You and your wife have my best wishes.
Thanks for your concern about my wife. She undergoes surgery one week from today (on 27 July) Please keep her in your prayers. The following Friday we move to S.C. so the surgery (or the move) has come at a rough time for us. Looking forward to the move though.Yeru
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
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Christmas Star = Satan?!
by reagan_oconnor ini was talking with my husband the other day about the jw's belief that the "christmas star" that guided the magi to christ was the doings of satan.
he didn't believe me; this is what i found in the "my book of bible stories" (copied verbatim from cd-rom).
who do you think made that new star to shine?
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Yerusalyim
Friday,
A few issues though. Christmas in no wise replaced the Saturnalia. The Holiday of Christmas was instituded AGAINST the Roman feast of Sol Invictus, the feast of the Unconqueored Sun, study the history a bit more. Saturnalia was celebrated in Mid Decemeber, Sol Invictus a few days after the winter solistis (sp) i.e. After Dec 21st.Matthew 2:7-11 says,
When Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea, in the days of King Herod, behold, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying, "Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star at its rising and have come to do him homage." When King Herod heard this, he was greatly troubled and all Jerusalem with him. Assembling all the chief priests and the scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born. They said to him "In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it has been written through the prophet: 'And you Bethlehem, land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; since from you shall come a ruler who is to shepher my people Isarel.' Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star appeared; and he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, "Go and search diligently for the child. When you have found him bring me word, that I may go and do him homage...They were overjoyed to at seeing the star...they fell down and worshipped him
From the above I draw that the Star didn't necessarily lead them to Jerusalem, but rather that the Magi went there expecting that was where to find a king (plus the fact that it would have been rather rude for dignataries from another country to enter into Israel without stopping by the king's house for a courtesy call. Another reason to think that perhaps the star didn't take them to Jerusalem is that they were "overjoyed" at seeing the star when the got to Bethlehem. Also, we see that the Magi either worshipped or did obessence to Jesus, recognizing him as a King. I don't pretend they understood the full implication of that, but not even the disciples did at first.
Isaiah 60 speaks to the messiah, and verse 6 speaks of people from the East bring him Frankincense and Gold. Now where else in Jesus life did this occur? As to whether or not it was a real star? Are we not to take the bible at it's word, several time it calls it a STAR not "what appeared to be a star" Finally, show me from scripture that we are to believe this is from Satan and not from God.
Yeru
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
69
Christmas Star = Satan?!
by reagan_oconnor ini was talking with my husband the other day about the jw's belief that the "christmas star" that guided the magi to christ was the doings of satan.
he didn't believe me; this is what i found in the "my book of bible stories" (copied verbatim from cd-rom).
who do you think made that new star to shine?
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Yerusalyim
Friday,
Let's try it this way, Show me from scripture where the star and the coming of the magi are of satan. It can't be done.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
69
Christmas Star = Satan?!
by reagan_oconnor ini was talking with my husband the other day about the jw's belief that the "christmas star" that guided the magi to christ was the doings of satan.
he didn't believe me; this is what i found in the "my book of bible stories" (copied verbatim from cd-rom).
who do you think made that new star to shine?
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Yerusalyim
Back to the top for ya Friday.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
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Hey VENICEIT
by Yerusalyim ini just like seeing your face on the screen, you're so pretty.. (ya'll need to get your minds out of the gutter).
yerusalyim.
"vanity!
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Yerusalyim
I think Ven's silence on this thread is deafening.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
69
Christmas Star = Satan?!
by reagan_oconnor ini was talking with my husband the other day about the jw's belief that the "christmas star" that guided the magi to christ was the doings of satan.
he didn't believe me; this is what i found in the "my book of bible stories" (copied verbatim from cd-rom).
who do you think made that new star to shine?
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Yerusalyim
FRIDAY dear friend,
No, the "nice crossing swords with you again" comment was not a sign I'm backing away from the debate, but a comment upon my sentiments. I genuinely enjoy our debates.
You said,YOU called my hand, and I answered you with sound reasoning.
now then, what sound reasoning was that? I must have missed it.
Isaiah 60 is speaking about Messiah. Verse 6 mentions gold and frankincense being brought. Then we see in Matt 2, that gold and frankincense are brought to Messiah. Sounds to me like fulfillment of this prophecy. I'll add more to this shortly, I have to go to the hospital with my wife.
Ok, I'm back from the Wife's appointment (she has a hysterectomy scheduled for 27 July, ya'll keep her in your prayers or thoughts or what have you).Friday, What I've offered is this, there is NO BIBLICAL evidence to suggest that Satan is in any way responsible for the star, or the coming of the Magi. The star announced a current happening, not a future event. God spoke to the Magi in a dream. The Magi worshipped (or did obessiance according to NWT) Jesus and offered him gifts. They recognized Jesus as KING, and though they did not fully understand the signifigance of that, they still performed an act of submission (whether you translate it worship or obessiance).
Isaiah 60:4 speaks of sons and daughters coming, I think this speaks of all the faithful who will come to Christ. True, no mention is made in Isaiah of myrrh, but there are other passages that speak of Jesus death. Myrrh was used in burials and therefore would be out of character with the Joyfulness announced in the rest of Isaiah 60.Where, dear Friday, is the BIBLICAL evidence? Where is the "sound reasoning" you mentioned? From what scripture tells me GOD created the stars. I don't see creative power given to Satan anywhere in the scriptures. WHAT is this sound reasoning that would attribute the Star to Satan? Because Satan used the coming of the Magi to tempt Herod? Satan used the tree to tempt adam and eve, yet didn't make the tree. It's not sound reasoning at all, but shear folly to attempt to intepret this scripture in this light.
Yeru
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
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Why do elders come unnanounced.......
by ISP inyeah, like these guys never make appointments.
just stroll up when it suits them and not you.
is it ignorance or simply a matter of discourtesy?
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Yerusalyim
Sam,
You said,
For most householders the time of the Witness call is not convenient.
I fully agree, and the reason it's inconvenient is because the householder is HOME. I'd love to miss the JW call.The reason the Elder's don't call..."If I knew you were coming I'd have baked a cake" probably laced with just enough arsenic to make you sick.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"] -
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nyc priest reveals confession
by orbison ininteresting, a nyc priest has revealed a confession re:murder which has allowed the courts to appeal the outcome,,,all i can find at the moment,,,just happened today.
w
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Yerusalyim
Yep, lets hear more about the issue.
Generally this is an automatic excommunication for the priest.
YERUSALYIM
"Vanity! It's my favorite sin!"
[Al Pacino as Satan, in "DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"]