Thats not the point all TFS.You can go to Osarsif etc and there you have articles that deal with the subjects of the books you mentioned, like COC >R...some written by those very authors...also there are extracts from their very books(have the report guys matched that yet!).You can then decide on that basis, after reading their online stuff as to whether you wan to pursue a study further.These report Guys however, seem to be very koy about disclosing information....you have to buy the book first.Maybe thats an indication of the quality of their book, the fact that they seem to be quiet secretive about whats in it seems to indicate that its just rubbish.
I brought GTR on the basis of the information over at osarsif, i didn't need to, since enough information had already been provided online by the author...but i wanted to pursue it further.
Until these report guys can do the same and start opening up a little and give me a reason to buy their book... they are nothing but a sham in my mind.
Posts by Zep
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78Modern-day Israel's Identity
by Onetruesource ini would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.
the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.
we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.
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Zep
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God and religion etc..............................
by Zep inthe communist world, it may be noted, has one big myth (which we call an illusion, in the vain hope that our superior judgment will make it disappear) it is the time hallowed archetypal dream of a golden age (or paradise), where everything is provided in abundance for everyone, and a great, just, and wise chief rules over a human kindergarten.
this powerful archetype in its infantile form has gripped them, but it will never disappear from the world at the mere sight of our superior points of view.
we even support it by our own childishness, for our western civilisation is in the grip of the same mythology.
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Zep
Like Path I find that there are too many things that are interrelated and marvelously balanced for all of this to be by mere chance for one thing
An atheist would argue all day with you on this point Frenchy.But you sum up my feeling on things and probably the reason why i decide to believe in god (in essence).Its just a feeling, an instinct that moves me to awe when i observe the world around, its just unbelievable and amazing...This 'awe' that i sense translates into God, into some vague purpose and meaning behind life.
Edited by - Zep on 6 September 2000 23:1:0
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36
God and religion etc..............................
by Zep inthe communist world, it may be noted, has one big myth (which we call an illusion, in the vain hope that our superior judgment will make it disappear) it is the time hallowed archetypal dream of a golden age (or paradise), where everything is provided in abundance for everyone, and a great, just, and wise chief rules over a human kindergarten.
this powerful archetype in its infantile form has gripped them, but it will never disappear from the world at the mere sight of our superior points of view.
we even support it by our own childishness, for our western civilisation is in the grip of the same mythology.
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Zep
If I'm reading this correctly, Jung is saying that the belief is more important than the truth of the belief. Man is getting benefit, inner calm & solace from the belief.
Jung is about balance.He subjected many things to rational inquiry and hes not saying you shouldn't think for yourself or question things to find answers.That was in fact what Jung was all about, thinking for yourself, finding your own INDIVIDUAL PATH in life....of which he called the 'process of individuation'.I probably should have put the first half of the article up, it probably explains a little more .It moreorless said that Communism and Capitalism fail to see their own short-coming of which they all too easily see in the opposing side.You could say the same about religion and people in general.With JW's, its the rest of the world thats evil and they(dubs) are the only way, the only good in an evil world.They project all their shortcomings and insecurities onto others but fail to see it in themselves, that they are no better.This is the problem with the whole world essentially and gives rise to wars and everything else.Jung was 100% against totalitarianism as any normal person should be.
You can have a belief in God and faith in a religion and not be dogmatic at the same time.I personnally put the idea of "god" in a separate catagory....into the realm of 'faith'.I have a very hazy definition of God now and i don't look to the bible as the one true source, but more so to my own mind and instincts.I put God outside the realm of rational inquiry, i dont need to prove his existence rationally to believe, i just let it go, let my instincts and desires go on the matter....I'm not going to deprive this world and life in general of a greater hope, whatever that maybe (it may well be an illusion but thats something i cant prove or disprove).My instincts tell me that a belief in God is better for me than an Atheist view of things.My belief in God is not a Dogmatic one...i'm not seeking to impose my views and morals on others because of that VAgUE belief i have, unlike other religions.I dont believe in a God of Hellfire and brimstone who makes you go out door knockin', giving out magazines...and is going to burn everyone at Armageddon! But i believe in something! -
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Most disgusting thing from Watchtower Corp.
by spectromize inone thing that really doesn't add up with the organization and their registrating to be a corp.(yes i have to put this in quote sorry it's called non-profit corp.) is the very fact that they play in the worldly system of things while they tell you to keep out of it.
(while they see nothing wrong in themselves playing the stock market with other peoples money) think about it where did jesus say to register god's organization as a corporation?.
furthermore if you were living in jesus' period of time who would be the president-vice-president-secratary- treasurer-shareholders...?.
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Zep
circare,
I was wondering what other organisations you have belonged to?
Would there be some that would not fit the Orwellian Nightmare?
A football club maybe!, i've never really belonged to an Organisation as such, outside of work.Would there be Some that would not fit the Orwellian nightmare??? hmmmm....sure!.
Totalitarianism, Dogmatism and hypocracy pervades all levels of Society, even so called Democracy....Witnesses dont have a monopoly on it at all. -
36
God and religion etc..............................
by Zep inthe communist world, it may be noted, has one big myth (which we call an illusion, in the vain hope that our superior judgment will make it disappear) it is the time hallowed archetypal dream of a golden age (or paradise), where everything is provided in abundance for everyone, and a great, just, and wise chief rules over a human kindergarten.
this powerful archetype in its infantile form has gripped them, but it will never disappear from the world at the mere sight of our superior points of view.
we even support it by our own childishness, for our western civilisation is in the grip of the same mythology.
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Zep
Why, then , should we deprive ourselves of views that would prove helpful in crises and would give a meaning to our existence?
Well, myself, i have a lot of doubt now. But i cant disprove God or a greater being or anything.I'm not going to use my doubt as a basis to dis-believe.Why should i make that jump, what good would it do me.I think you can cultivate a belief or faith in a greater being or reality on nothing more than the desire to believe.
I don't see why i should put a cap on that need, feeling or instinct for something greater just because my rational mind cant put God under a microscope...because i cant understand everything under the sun.Thats how i see things.I think the instinct or desire to believe is more than enough of a basis to believe.Jung is fascinating but also complex and inexplicable at times.You can read his stuff and not understand any of it first time round and then read it again and 'bam', you can suddenly see what he's saying.They say you have to live Jungs ideas to really understand them...they arn't something you can just put into formula and there you have it!.He's about going beyond the rational mind and trying to understand the emotional, irrational, unconscious side of our Nature.He's was a great thinker.
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Jesus' Answer for a Sign
by Friend inthe following was originally written as part of a response to criticisms against the belief that the synoptic gospel contains jesus' answer for a sign of his parousia that is realized today.
some of the language is then necessarily a bit unusual because of the originally intended audience.
lately this subject has come up in other circles so i chose to also post the comments to this forum.
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Zep
Don't be aghast.I understood you the first time actually, you just confirmed what i thought you were getting at.Its just that these things tend to get muddled at times with me...Its hard to see a new perspective like yours when you have such a habit of hearing the sign explained another way(WT's).But now i know where your at for sure and thanks for clarifying...I'll try and get back to you soon.I don't think, at the moment, that i was necessarily reading into the text however...i think you can read MAT numerous ways, thats the problem for me!
Edited by - Zep on 4 September 2000 11:11:39
Edited by - Zep on 4 September 2000 11:12:32
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36
God and religion etc..............................
by Zep inthe communist world, it may be noted, has one big myth (which we call an illusion, in the vain hope that our superior judgment will make it disappear) it is the time hallowed archetypal dream of a golden age (or paradise), where everything is provided in abundance for everyone, and a great, just, and wise chief rules over a human kindergarten.
this powerful archetype in its infantile form has gripped them, but it will never disappear from the world at the mere sight of our superior points of view.
we even support it by our own childishness, for our western civilisation is in the grip of the same mythology.
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Zep
Thanks seven, i'll check it out for sure.I'm a bit of a Jung fan and have read a couple of books on his stuff.The one above, 'man and his symbols' and another one called 'Boundries of the Soul' by June Singer, which is a really good read if you ever get the chance!
BTW, i just figured out your name.I use to think sevenOFnine = something like seven of nine kids??????!!!!....until i saw Voyager a few weeks ago.I can see where your coming from with it now!.Good nic!
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34
Jesus' Answer for a Sign
by Friend inthe following was originally written as part of a response to criticisms against the belief that the synoptic gospel contains jesus' answer for a sign of his parousia that is realized today.
some of the language is then necessarily a bit unusual because of the originally intended audience.
lately this subject has come up in other circles so i chose to also post the comments to this forum.
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Zep
Please answer the following question very carefully. Which events, if any, did Jesus indicate would be more?
If you take the sign to mean, as many do, that 'Nation will rise against nation and there will be pestilence and EarthQuakes' and 'great signs from heaven' and 'signs in the sun and the moon and the stars and the anguish of the nations' as LUKE adds.There has to be a delineating peroid in history for you to be able to discern this and to set it apart from prior history...If these things above are part of the Sign that the Apostles asked for, that was to indicate that Jesus second advent was near, then it has to be distinquishable from prior history else it really isn't a sign of his coming and you may as well say that the sign has been visible for 2000 years. Therefore, i'd say that these events would have to be 'more' as opposed to less, so we can distinquish that sign.On the other hand, you can read MAT in the sense that the "Nation will rise against nation' part of things is just a continuation of the prior warning that there would be 'wars and rumours of wars' and that these things would happen, but they are not a sign, they are just the way things will always be and therefore dont read anything into them.Matthew also gives another sign, saying that the gospel will be preached to the whole world...so, make of that what you will, was he talking globally or just about his immediate area etc, i dont know?.But if this was supposed to be a major feature of the the sign, why doesn't Luke even mention it, he says nothing about the gospel being preached world wide.Luke, gives the impression to me that 'Nation against nation' etc is actually the real sign...therefore, you do need a delineating moment somewhere in history to be able to distinquish it from prior history else you dont have a 'sign' as i said.
Also, contrary to your feelings, Jesus did not indicate that anyone other than his followers—true believers—would recognize the fulfillment of Jesus answer for a sign prior to the very end of the age.
Well, i guess my heart isn't right as usual.But to me, Jesus indicated a period in history that would be significant and serve as a sign. People might not recognize that period in time as having anything to do with Jesus' coming, but the fact that there is to be a significant change in human history with respect to Wars, pestilence, Earthquakes and famine should be discernable as far as i'm concerned.All these things however, have remained pretty much constant throughout history, and people have always drawn a comparison between their particular times and 'the sign'.
Btw, I'd need more details in respect this Global communication idea you have in order to make a judgment.I'm really not sure about it Friend!.I like to keep things simple...and i'm not sure i'm getting your point exactly.Honestly, I just cant see things as really being any different from prior centuries at the moment and i really dont see how Global communication has any bearing on the sign Jesus gave either!.The primary thing to me is that you have to have a marked increase in those things specifically that Jesus gave out as being a sign....So, thats the question for me.Have these things(earthquakes etc) increased enough to warrant connection with the Sign?.I'd like to think that God would keep things that simple without bringing too many twists and turns into the equation.Edited by - Zep on 4 September 2000 1:46:16
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Modern-day Israel's Identity
by Onetruesource ini would like to open this discussion on israel, because i have come to learn many things about it.
the bible scriptures continue to prophecy about the nation of israel.
we all know that the natural nation has been disowned by jehovah, because unfaithfulness.
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Zep
Hows that Webpage coming along MDS?
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36
God and religion etc..............................
by Zep inthe communist world, it may be noted, has one big myth (which we call an illusion, in the vain hope that our superior judgment will make it disappear) it is the time hallowed archetypal dream of a golden age (or paradise), where everything is provided in abundance for everyone, and a great, just, and wise chief rules over a human kindergarten.
this powerful archetype in its infantile form has gripped them, but it will never disappear from the world at the mere sight of our superior points of view.
we even support it by our own childishness, for our western civilisation is in the grip of the same mythology.
-
-
Zep
The communist world, it may be noted, has one big myth (which we call an illusion, in the vain hope that our superior judgment will make it disappear) It is the time hallowed archetypal dream of a Golden Age (or Paradise), where everything is provided in abundance for everyone, and a great, just, and wise chief rules over a human kindergarten. This powerful archetype in its infantile form has gripped them, but it will never disappear from the world at the mere sight of our superior points of view. We even support it by our own childishness, for our Western civilisation is in the grip of the same mythology. Unconsciously, we cherish the same prejudices, hopes, and expectations. We too believe in the Welfare state, in universal peace, in the equality of man, in his eternal human rights, in justice, truth, and (do not say it too loudly) in the Kingdom of God on Earth.
The sad truth is tha man's real life consists of a complex of inexorable opposites- day and night, birth and death, hapiness and misery, good and evil. We are not even sure that one will prevail against the other, that good will overcome evil, or joy will defeat pain. Life is a battleground. It always has been, and always will be; and if it were not so, existence would come to an end.
It was precisely this conflict within man that led the early Christians to expect and hope for an early end to this world, or the Buddhists to reject all earthly desires and aspirations. These basic answers would be frankly suicidal if they were not linked up with peculiar mental and moral ideas and practices that constitute the bulk of both religions and that, to a certain extent, modify their radical denial of the world.
I stress this point because, in our time, there are millions of people who have lost faith in any kind of religion. Such people do not understand their religion any longer. While life runs smoothly without religion, the loss remains as good as unnoticed. But when suffereing comes, it is another matter. That is when people begin to seek a way out and to reflect about the meaning of life and its bewildering and painful experiences.
It is significant that the psychological doctor (within my experience) is consulted more by Jews and Protestants than by Catholics. This might be expected, for the Catholic Church still feels responsible for the cura animarum (the care of the soul's welfare). But in this scientific age, the psychriatrist is apt to be asked the questions that once belonged in the domain of the theologian. People feel that it makes, or would make, a great difference if only they had a positive belief in a meaningful way of life or in God and immortality. The specter of approaching death often gives a powerful incentive to such thoughts. From time immemorial, men have had ideas about a supreme being (one or several) and about the land Hereafter. Only today do they think they can do without such ideas.
Because we cannot discover God's throne in the sky with a radiotelescope or establish (for certain) that a beloved father or mother is still about in a more or less corporeal form, people assume that such ideas are "not true" I would rather say that they are not "true" enough, for these are conceptions of a kind that have accompanied human life from prehistoric times, and that still break through into consciousness at any provocation.
Modern man may asssert that he can dispense with them, and he may bolster his opinion by insisting that there is no scientific evidence of their truth. Or he may even regret the loss of his convictions. But since we are dealing with invisible and unknowable things (for God is beyond human understanding, and there is no means of proving immortality), why should we bother about evidence? Even if we did not know by reason our need for salt in our food, we should nonetheless profit from its use. We might argue that the use of salt is a mere illusion of taste or a superstition; but it would still contribute to our well-being. Why, then , should we deprive ourselves of views that would prove helpful in crises and would give a meaning to our existence?
And how do we know that such ideas are not true? Many people would probably agree with me if I stated flatly that such ideas are probably illusions. What they fail to realize is that the denial is as impossible to "prove" as the assertion of religious belief. We are entirely free to choose which point of view we take; it will in any case be an arbitrary decision.
There is, however, a strong empirical reason why we should cultivate thoughts that can never be proved. It is that they are known to be useful. Man positively needs general ideas and convictions that will give a meaning to his life and enable him to find a place for himself in the universe. He can stand the most incredible hardships when he is convinced that they make sense; he is crushed when, on top of all his misfortunes, he has to admit that he is taking part in a "tale told by an idiot."
It is the role of religious symbols to give a meaning to the life of man. The Pueblo Indians believe that they are the sons of Father Sun, and this belief endows their life with a perspective (and a goal) that goes far beyond their limited existence. It gives them ample space for the unfolding of personality and permits them a full life as complete persons. Their plight is infinitely more satisfactory than that of a man in our own civilization who knows that he is (and will remain) nothing more than an underdog with no inner meaning to his life.
A sense of a wider meaning to one's existence is what raises a man beyond mere getting and spending. I f he lacks this sense, he is lost and miserable.Carl.G.Jung
'Man and his Symbols'
1964