Posts by Leolaia

"Nero died at the age of 31, on the anniversary of Octavia's murder. In the widespread general rejoicing, citizens ran throught the streets wearing caps of liberty. But there were people who used to lay spring and summer flowers on his grave for a long time, and had statues made of him. . .; they even continued to circulate edicts pretending he was still alive and would soon return to confound his enemies. . . . In fact, twenty years later, when I was a young man, a mysterious individual came forward claiming to be Nero; and so magical was the sound of his name in the Parthians' ears that they supported him to the best of their ability, and only handed him over with great reluctance."

Terentius Maximus of Parthia claimed to be Nero redivivus in A.D. 80. The Roman writer Juvenal called Domitian a "second Nero" (calvus Nero; IV, 38). Tacitus, Hist. i. 78, ii. 8 mentions pretenders claiming to be "Nero reborn" as late as A.D. 89. The late first century A.D. Christian interpolation in the Ascension of Isaiah 4:2-4 foretells the return of Nero in a manner reminiscent of Revelation and SibOr 5, as an incarnation of Satan himself (likely merging the redivivus myth with the Christian antichrist myth):

"And after it has been brought to completion, Beliar will descend, the great angel, the king of this world, which he has ruled ever since it existed. He will descend from his firmament in the form of a man, a king of iniquity, a murderer of his mother--this is the king of this world--and will persecute the plant which the twelve apostles of the Beloved will have planted; some of the twelve will be given into his hand. This angel, Beliar, will come in the form of that king, and with him will come all the powers of this world, and they will obey him in every wish."

Re Nero redivivus being Beliar, see also SibOr 3:64-74 which equates the two. As for Rome being prefigured by Babylon, we find this identification in the pre-Christian pesher on Habakkuk 1:6 (dating to the first century B.C.), which in 1QHab 2.10-14 equates the Chaldeans with the Romans:

10. all coming to his people and. ... (be)cause behold I am raising up (1:6)
11. the Chaldeans, the nation the bit(ter) ... ... (the has)ty (1:6)
12. Pesher about how the Romans a... ..h speedy ones and mighty men
13. in war to destroy r.. .... from the government of
14. the Romans to do evil ... ... and we do not say

The interpretation continues in 3.6-11:

6. and to come with all the peoples. Their horses are lighter than leopards and more alert (1:8)
7. than the evening wolves. Their horsemen spread themselves from afar 1:8,9)
8. and they fly as an eagle hastening to eat. (1:8) All of them coming for violence multiplying(1:9)
9. by their faces the east (wind). Pesher about the Romans who
10. possess the earth with horses and with their beasts and extend themselves
11. and they come from the isles of the sea to destroy ... and (..)iyl the peoples as an eagle

Within the New Testament, the reference to "Babylon" in 1 Peter 5:13 is generally thought to be a mention of Peter in Rome (compare 2 Timothy 4:11). Outside of the New Testament, "Babylon" as symbolic term for Rome occurs in several other early Christian writings (aside from Sibylline Oracles, Book 5, which I quoted above as very explicitly identifying Babylon with Rome in a Revelation-type prophecy from the end of the first century). There is for instance, what second-century apologist Tertullian also wrote:

"By a similar usage Babylon also in our John is a figure of the city of Rome, as being like (Babylon) great and proud in royal power, and warring down the saints of God." (Against Marcion, 13)

"So, again, Babylon, in our own John, is a figure of the city Rome, as being equally great and proud of her sway, and triumphant over the saints." (Answer to the Jews, 9)

In other Jewish apocalyptic works similar to Revelation (like SibOr 5), Babylon also refers to Rome. See 2 Baruch 32:2-33:2 and 4 Ezra 3:1-2, which date to the early second century A.D.

Leolaia

49

Evolution Question(s)

by Cassiline in

if we have evolved my assumption is we still are evolving correct?

or am i wrong in this assumption as well?

with all that was wrought on jws this is one teaching i can not get past that of evolution v. creation.

Leolaia

None of them have the faintest idea what they?re talking about when it comes to evolution and geological history, but that never stopped them from making grandiose pronouncements about them.

I remember the Creation book published the following maxim as the caption of an illustration of God's creation: "Natural selection explains how animals survive, not how they arrive." Catchy, pithy saying, I thought at the time, and being only a high school student, I didn't understand what "survival of the fittest" had anything to do with the evolution of new species. Then one day in Biology 101 the professor gave us a lecture on natural selection, and explained it so simply in just a few minutes that it was like a light shown down from heaven.....ohhhhh, now I understand! And I then realized at that moment that the WTS really doesn't understand evolution and speciation at all.

Leolaia

49

Evolution Question(s)

by Cassiline in

if we have evolved my assumption is we still are evolving correct?

or am i wrong in this assumption as well?

with all that was wrought on jws this is one teaching i can not get past that of evolution v. creation.

Leolaia

the Creation book, that misbegotten pale blue travesty that probably lead to me spending another nine years in a cult as it revised the one thing that even with my miniscule knowledge of the subject at the time I knew was in dire conflict with the evidence.

I know a brother who in the late '80s placed it with a householder in field service and returned the following week at a return visit. The householder had checked the original sources cited therein and angrily told my friend that he ripped the book in half and threw it away, even wanted his money back!

Leolaia

40

The "Critical Times" Con-Game - Dec. 15 Watchtower

by metatron in

"all this testifies that we are living in 'critical times'" - 2 tim.

3: 1-5 (dec. 15, 2003 wt pg.

they never get tired of repeating this deception, do they?.

Leolaia

I think those that ruin the earth could also be greedy industrialists , corrupt governments and religionists that oppose christianity such as in the middle east . I don't think that revelations was written about rome but about future events that would take place before the end of the world as we know it .

Again, the internal evidence of Revelation and Leviticus points to excessive sin as what "ruins the earth" and Rev. 19:2 in fact says it explicitly. As far as Babylon the Great being Rome, there is hardly any doubt about this. Remember what it was like after A.D. 70. Rome had just destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, exactly what Babylon did in 587 B.C. The typological parallel between Rome and Babylon was very much in the minds of early Christians. The prophecies of Revelation were written to give comfort to Christians living during that hard time, just as Ezekiel was written in sixth century B.C. At that time, John the Presbyter was a modern-day Ezekiel and Jeramiah, bringing potent warnings about the immediate divine judgment of Rome and its coming destruction, just as Jeramiah had prophesied the fall of Babylon and Ezekiel the fall of Tyre. Just read Rev. 17-18 side by side with Jeremiah 50 and Ezekiel 26-28 and the literary connection is clear.

The details in Rev. 17 quite transparently apply to the Roman empire and the Neronian persection. The seven heads are Rome's seven hills, v. 9, and the horns are ten subject kings, v. 16. The beast, v. 8, is Nero himself, the number of the beast in 13:18 according to traditional gematria renders the name NERO CAESER. The worship of the beast in 13:15 refers to the Caeser cult which everyone was required to worship the king as a god so that "whom all the kings of the earth," that is, all the kings subject to the Empire, had to worship (17:2). The beast's killing of the saints (v. 6) is a reference to Nero's persecution of Christians. Verse 10 makes the identification with Nero quite plain: "The seven heads are also seven emperors. Five of them have already gone, one is here now, and one is yet to come." The five preceding emperors were JULIUS, AUGUSTUS, TIBERIUS, CALIGULA, and CLAUDIUS and the "one [that] is here now" would therefore be NERO. The seventh would be VESPASIAN, who was responsible under General Titus for the destruction of Jerusalem. And then in v. 11 we read: "The beast who once was and now is not, is at the same time the eighth and one of the seven, and he is going to his destruction." The eighth emperor is probably a reference to DOMITIAN (Titus had a brief reign and was closely associated with Vespasian), who was believed by many to be Nero resurrected. This Nero redivivus legend is also mentioned in ch. 13 where the beast had "worldwide authority" (v. 2) and then received a fatal wound "but that this fatal injury had healed" (v. 3). According to the legend, the resurrected Nero would head a Parthian army (the Parthians were a vassal of Rome) and attack the city once more (as Nero had previously attacked the city with his fire). This is stated in 17:16 where "the time will come when the ten horns [the vassal kings of the Roman Empire, cf. v. 12] and the beast [Nero] will turn against the prostitute [Rome], and strip off her clohtes and leave her naked, then they will eat her flesh and burn the remains in the fire."

Bear in mind also that the understanding that Babylon referred to Rome was near universal in early Christianity and is the very source of the Watchtower claim that Babylon the Great in Revelation refers to "the empire of false religion". During the Reformation, the Protestant reformers adopted the traditional view that Babylon referred to Rome, but since Rome in their day was the headquarters of the Roman Catholic Church, they adjusted the interpretation to refer to Roman Catholicism. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Protestants commonly understood Babylon the Great as symbolizing Catholicism, and Pastor Russell inherited this understanding and broadened it to Christendom in general. Then later on, the Watchtower broadened it even further to include all other religions in its "Religion is a Snare and a Racket" days. But always at the very root of all this was the original understanding that Babylon referred to Rome.

The same understanding of Babylon as Rome and the same Nero redivivus legend appears in Book 5 of the Sibylline Oracles, a Jewish prophecy written between A.D. 80 and 110. In this version, Nero did not really die but went into hiding with the Parthians. Let me quote some excerpts of it:

The poets will bewail thrice-wretched Greece when a great king of great Rome, a godlike man from Italy, will cut the ridge of the isthmus. Him, they say, Zeus himself begot and lady Hera. Playing at theatricals with honey-sweet songs rendered with melodious voice, he will destroy many men, and his wretched mother [obviously referring to Nero]. He will flee from Babylon [clearly referring to Rome], a terrible and shameless prince whom all mortals and noble men despise. For he destroyed many men and laid hands on the womb...He will come to the Medes and the kings of the Persians, those whom he first desired and to whom he gave glory, lurking with these evil ones against a true people. He seized the divinely built Temple and burned the citizens and peoples who went into it [Nero did not of course capture Jerusalem but the war began in his reign]....
But when the fourth year a great star shines which alone will destroy the whole earth [cf. Revelation 8:10, about the huge star falling from the sky to the sea], because of the honor which they first gave to Poseidon of the sea, a great star will come from heaven to the wondrous sea and will burn the deep sea and Babylon itself and the land of Italy [Babylon being in the land of Italy], because of which many holy faithful Hebrews and a true people perished....With you are found adulteries and illicit intercourse with boys [cf. the fornication and sin of Rome in Rev. 19:2 that pollutes the land]. Effeminate and unjust, evil city, ill-fated above all. Alas, city of the Latin land, unclean in all things, as a widow you will sit by the banks [cf. Isaiah 47:2, 8-9, where Babylon the "voluptuous woman" is now a widow at the riverbank], and the river Tiber will weep for you [cf. the weeping for Babylon in Rev. 18:9-23 by the "seafaring men and sailors" on Babylon's rivers], its consort....
There will come to pass in the last time about the waning of the moon a war which will throw the world into confusion and be deceptive in guile [cf. the great battle in Rev. 19:19, where the "beast" leads the great war]. A man who is a matricide [obviously referring to Nero] will come from the ends of the earth in flight and devising penetrating schemes in his mind. He will destroy every land and conquer all and consider all things more wisely than all men [cf. the wisdom and miracles of the Beast in Rev. 13:13-15]....Woe to you, Babylon, of golden throne and golden sandal. For many years you were the sole kingdom ruling over the world. You who were formerly great and universal, you will no longer lie on golden mountains and streams of the Euphrates [in parallel with Rome on the River Tiber]. You will be spread out flat by the turmoil of an earthquake [Rev. 16:18-19]. Terrible Parthians make you shake all over [referring to the return of Nero with the Parthian army; cf. also Rev. 9:14-19 and 16:12 which discusses the Parthian kings and army]...You will pay a bitter reckoning to your enemies in return for your crooked words. In the last time, the sea will be dry [cf. Rev. 21:1] and ships will then no longer sail to Italy.

The oracle then extends to a universal war involving the heavenly hosts and the conflaguration of the earth (cf. Seneca's Consolatio ad Marciam 26.6). The connection with the prophecy in Revelation is very clear and shows that Jews as well had similar visions and used the same language to refer to Nero and Rome, even more explicitly than in Revelation. The expectation of Domitian's rule culminating into universal Armageddon pretty much dates this prophecy to that time. Book 8 of the Sibylline Oracles dates to later in the second century A.D. and incorporates the same Nero redivivus myth, but updates it to the time of Marcus Aurelius and similarly expects the destruction of Rome and universal conflaguration during Aurelius' time.

Leolaia

13

The True Story of Santa Claus

by Country_Woman in

in a few days we are celebratig one of the largest "children" feasts of the netherlands.

i paste the link from what i typed hereunder: .

http://www.thehollandring.com/sinterklaas.htm .

Leolaia

I remember when I visited Amsterdam how tickled i was to see Santa Claus church just outside Centraal Station.

Leolaia

26

Master & Commander - Movie/Film

by BluesBrother in

i do not generally post in this section, or go to the cinema very much, but this film opened here this week .

it was utterly brilliant!.

dont go if you are prone to sea sickness, it is the most realistic experience of being on a sailing ship .. held me transfixed ...... superb historical drama.

Leolaia

wonder how they did the storm sequence because it really looked 100 percent realistic.

I think it was mostly digital .... the credits at the end of the movie seem to suggest it. I think there's been a pretty good evolution of digital realism of stormy sea scenes (Perfect Storm > Star Wars Attack of the Clones > Master & Commander). I think it looked a little fake in Perfect Storm but it is almost flawless in this movie.

Leolaia

4

Crab vs. Pipe

by Enishi in

my jaw dropped when i saw the clip on this site.

it's scary yet funny at the same time.

poor crab.... http://burningsmell.dyndns.org/crab/index.html

Leolaia

Like getting sucked out of an airline window.

Leolaia

29

Mickey Mouse vs. Looney Toons

by Leolaia in

did anyone catch the looney toons marathon the other week on boomerang?

i have to say that i always thought disney mickey mouse cartoons sucked and were never funny to me.

who would you rather watch -- mickey or bugs bunny?

Leolaia

Did anyone catch the Looney Toons marathon the other week on Boomerang? I have to say that I always thought Disney Mickey Mouse cartoons sucked and were never funny to me. Who would you rather watch -- Mickey or Bugs Bunny? Daffy or Donald? Is there anyone here who wasn't bored stiff watching Disney Mickey Mouse cartoons early Sunday evening when you were a kid? Mickey seems to work better as a Disney icon than as a funny cartoon character. But here apparently are some people who like Mickey as a character:

http://www.rateitall.com/showitemria.aspx?itemid=D9E082BB-2B39-4CA9-ABE3-C2BA64A99832

I dunno. I've caught a few of the cartoons on the Disney Channel and they're still incredibly boring.

Leolaia

34

marriage = jw + jw

by HapEMelissa in

does the marriage of an active jw have to be to another active and practicing jw?

Leolaia

I remember a guy whose son was studying with the witnesses, he was an unbeliever, but then he saw a beautiful Japanese sister and that made a believer out of him. He was married at the time (but separated) and he wanted to date this temptress, so he told his son: "I've decided to go for the whole package deal." I kid you not, that's exactly what he said! He got a divorce, studied, and married this sister (who had done missionary work in Japan) as soon as he got baptised. I think he ended up as an elder. But I will always remember the real reason why he wanted to become a witness. --Leolaia