Posts by Leolaia

66

Passing the time at JW Assemblies

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

love_truth, in describing the utter dullness of jw assemblies and conventions, just gave me an interesting idea for a thread.

what were some of the ways you tried to make the hours pass?

some of mine: looking at the interesting refracting patterns the arena floodlights made on my eyeglasses when looking thru them at an angle.looking for people i knew from my congregation and others in the mass of people in the arena.counting the number of people leaving the section to go to the bathroompractice writing people's names in elvish scripthaving a conversation with friends a row behind me by passing notes back and forthseeing how many pages of my bible stick together when i slam a wad of gum in between its pages.. what else?

Leolaia

nojudgement.....I have been out for over 12 years, and you brought it all back in such horrifying detail! I kinda wonder, in that vast arena of convention-goers, are there people there who actually LIKED that crap and couldn't wait for the next convention?

67

Did Noah really build an ark?

by frogit in

this might be worth a watch for us uk ers.

noah's ark will be broadcast in the uk on bbc one on sunday 21 march at 1900 gmt.. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3524676.stm.

it's also an interesting read.

Leolaia

The program seems to be the same one I saw on the Discovery Channel, which was based on the book by Robert M. Best. I believe the Flood story is a through-and-through myth, a folkloric archetype that stands apart from mere cultural diffusion and which likely preceded the rise of civilization in the Near East. There is thus no historical "kernal" at the core, unless one recognizes the widespread fact that early homo sapiens sapiens migrated largely along coastal routes which were inundated at the end of the last glaciation (and perhaps several times before that as well).

But I do believe that the Sumerian-Akkadian version of the Flood myth (of which the biblical story is a later descendent) represents a local historicization of a more general and far more ancient myth, embedding memories of actual floods experienced by the ancestors of the Sumerian civilization into the repertoire of Flood traditions. According to the Sumerian King List and the Instructions of Shuruppak, the Flood occurred before the rise of Early Dynastic I and after the antediluvian dynasties of Eridu, Sippar, and Shuruppak, and involved the survival of Ziusudra, the lugal (king) of Shuruppak. That is a specific historical context, and archaeological evidence attests just such a flood at that time -- and another several hundred years before. Unusual alluvial strata were found at nearly contemporaneous levels during excavations at Shuruppak (modern Fara), Uruk, the earliest level at Kish, and possibly Lagash. These strata were deposited about 2900 BC, about 2 feet of yellow sediment in Shuruppak. The alluvial stratum was found directly aboce a polychrome jar, seal cylinders, and stamp seals from the Jemdet Nasr period (3200-2900 BC), and directly below plano-convex bricks from ED I which followed the Jemdet Nasr period (which according to radiocarbon dating began around 2900 BC). A 3-foot layer dating to about 2900 BC was found at Uruk, and the first of four flood strata at Kish dated to the same time. In all three cases, the flood layer stands at a "cultural break" between the Jemdet Nasr period and ED I. There was also an earlier flood from around 3800 BC that deposited an alluvial layer at a maximum 11 feet thick at Ur that came near the end of the Ubadian civilization (5000-3800 BC) and preceded the Uruk period (3800-3200 BC). There is a thin layer of Ubadian pottery after the flood layer, suggesting that Ubaidian culture lingered on for a short while before being replaced by a quite different culture from immigrants from the north. These two floods would have been catastophic to the early civilizations in the alluvial plain and I find it hard to believe that they would have been forgotten only 500 years afterward (in the case of the Jemdet Nasr flood) when the Instructions of Shuppurak was first composed. It is clear that the antediluvian period from the Sumerian King List preserves memories of the Ubaidian, Uruk, and Jemdet Nasr periods (e.g. Eridu began in the Ubaidian period and was an important city in the Uruk period, and Shuruppak was founded in the Jemdet Nasr period and was a significant urban center in that period), so it seems possible that that the elements locating the flood in Shuruppak and prior to the rise of ED I likely incorporate memories of the 2900 BC (and possibly the 3800 BC) flood. But one should not however take the Ziusudra or Gilgamesh Epic story and read it as history, as the story identifies a catastrophic flood of proto-historical memory with a pre-existing tale (as cross-cultural evidence suggests) that likely included folkloric motifs already in existence when the historical flood occurred.

12

Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4

by Leolaia in

in my recent thread on the nephilim and the rephaim (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/68224/1.ashx), i indicated that the legend of the titans was broadly related to the canaanite and hebrew myths of the nephilim and rephaim, but here in 2 peter we see more recent hellenistic influence on jewish legend.

according to hesiod and other greek writers, the titans were the wicked offspring of ouranius and gaia ("heaven" and "earth") who initially had sovereignty over the cosmos but whom zeus and the olympian gods defeated and consigned to eternal bondage in the prison called tartarus in the netherworld.

iliad 8:13-16 describes tartarus as a bottomless pit located below hades, a distinction reminiscent of hades and the abyss of revelation.

Leolaia

PP.....The WT "scholarly" publications should be used to teach how to recognize faulty reasoning. Do you remember the ALL SCRIPTURE INSPIRED book? It is quite humorous going back and seeing how they argue that Adam was the author of the first chapters of Genesis, David was the author of most of the Psalms, Solomon was the author of Song of Solomon, Isaiah wrote all of Isaiah, etc. etc, ignoring all sorts of evidence and putting internal claims higher than actual evidence. I would also recall how the Aid book would discuss, say, the Amorites and how the Amorites of history were different from how the Bible characterizes them, so they conclude that some other group with the same name was meant. The same goes for the Hittites, the Horites, etc. etc.

12

Tartarus in 2 Peter 2:4

by Leolaia in

in my recent thread on the nephilim and the rephaim (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/68224/1.ashx), i indicated that the legend of the titans was broadly related to the canaanite and hebrew myths of the nephilim and rephaim, but here in 2 peter we see more recent hellenistic influence on jewish legend.

according to hesiod and other greek writers, the titans were the wicked offspring of ouranius and gaia ("heaven" and "earth") who initially had sovereignty over the cosmos but whom zeus and the olympian gods defeated and consigned to eternal bondage in the prison called tartarus in the netherworld.

iliad 8:13-16 describes tartarus as a bottomless pit located below hades, a distinction reminiscent of hades and the abyss of revelation.

Leolaia

robhic.....That's a good point. 1 Enoch 7:3 also says that the height of the giants were "three thousand ells," and since an ell was about 2 or 2 1/2 feet (the length from the shoulder to the wrist), the giants would have stood about 5,000 feet tall at least. I think this is characteristic of the later post-exilic tradition -- possibly influenced directly by Greco-Roman mythologies which posited the Titans and their Giant and Cyclops offspring of fantastic size (at least in the case of Atlas). The older Israelite notion of the Rephaim and Nephilim was discussed in my thread on the subject:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/68224/1.ashx

and these older sources characterized the giants as only 9-15 feet in height. It is definitely this height that Goliath is described as in 1 Samuel.

I also like the new avatar, although I found the old one disturbingly hot. Maybe I should try out for the next Planet of the Apes movie if they make one?

Hehehe. This is a scenic photo from the coast of France taken many years ago (let's just say, before Jesus' parousia).

19

"Dogma" by Kevin Smith

by dustyb in

jw
friends

who's seen the movie dogma?

there was a little debacle a few days ago about jehovah is a dickhead and starts shit for nothing and kills his people.

but there's a movie that was written and directed by kevin smith named dogma.

Leolaia

I love Kevin Smith movies, and Dogma was one of the best. If I had to rank them, I guess I'd go:

1) Dogma, Chasing Amy

2) Clerks, Jay & Silent Bob,

3) Mallrats

And has anyone seen Jersey Girl, or is it out yet? And what's up with that? I thought Kevin Smith wasn't making anymore New Jersey trilogy films -- but here is a Jersey film even starring Affleck. I guess it doesn't have Jay and Silent Bob in it.

And did you know he is directing a Fletch prequel that, like the Dumb and Dumber prequel, doesn't star Chevy Chase? Why Fletch.....is there any hankering out there for another Fletch movie?

66

Passing the time at JW Assemblies

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

love_truth, in describing the utter dullness of jw assemblies and conventions, just gave me an interesting idea for a thread.

what were some of the ways you tried to make the hours pass?

some of mine: looking at the interesting refracting patterns the arena floodlights made on my eyeglasses when looking thru them at an angle.looking for people i knew from my congregation and others in the mass of people in the arena.counting the number of people leaving the section to go to the bathroompractice writing people's names in elvish scripthaving a conversation with friends a row behind me by passing notes back and forthseeing how many pages of my bible stick together when i slam a wad of gum in between its pages.. what else?

Leolaia

Welcome to the board, FMZ!

blondie....I never saw Mulan's BS bingo. How does it go?

It's interesting reading the notebook I used to have a conversation with my friends during the convention. It has all sorts of gossip in it from almost two decades ago!

Leolaia

66

Passing the time at JW Assemblies

by Leolaia in

jw
friends

love_truth, in describing the utter dullness of jw assemblies and conventions, just gave me an interesting idea for a thread.

what were some of the ways you tried to make the hours pass?

some of mine: looking at the interesting refracting patterns the arena floodlights made on my eyeglasses when looking thru them at an angle.looking for people i knew from my congregation and others in the mass of people in the arena.counting the number of people leaving the section to go to the bathroompractice writing people's names in elvish scripthaving a conversation with friends a row behind me by passing notes back and forthseeing how many pages of my bible stick together when i slam a wad of gum in between its pages.. what else?

Leolaia

Love_Truth, in describing the utter dullness of JW assemblies and conventions, just gave me an interesting idea for a thread. What were some of the ways you tried to make the hours pass? Some of mine:

Looking at the interesting refracting patterns the arena floodlights made on my eyeglasses when looking thru them at an angle.
Looking for people I knew from my congregation and others in the mass of people in the arena.
Counting the number of people leaving the section to go to the bathroom
Practice writing people's names in Elvish script
Having a conversation with friends a row behind me by passing notes back and forth
Seeing how many pages of my Bible stick together when I slam a wad of gum in between its pages.

What else? Tell your stories of utter boredom!

32

JUST READ CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE

by marie67 in

jw
friends

i'm new to this forum.

actually i've been a lurker for awhile.

posted on sassy's call to the newbies.

Leolaia

Marie, I know from experience that reading such a detailed and paradigm-changing book is overwhelming at first and it might take a while for it to fully sink in and for you to assess your own complex personal situation. That's okay. Best thing is to take things slow, chat with others in similar situations as you, read more material that helps bring things into focus, and eventually decide on what your best course of action might be and the best way to pursue it. I know the feeling of hypocrasy and how I could no longer participate in field service in good conscience and then, as I learned more, it was hard to attend meetings when I realized that the books and magazines were intellectually dishonest and people in their comments were just repeating these distortions as facts. It was a bit much to take after a while, but living at home with my mom I had little choice. Back to your situation, I hope you learn more of the real "truth" and more importantly how to take what you have learned and chart a new course for yourself that navigates around the difficulties you will face in getting out from "the rock and the hard place".

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