Posts by Leolaia

10

Great Crowd ,who are they in the Bible ?

by raymond frantz in

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in the book of revelation the word "great crowd" appears 3 times,it is quite interesting that in all 3 verses it says a great crowd and not the great crowd .could that possibly mean that this is not a specific group but just a multitude of spiritual beings in heaven ?in the same line of reasoning the bible uses the word "a great crowd " in john 6:2 ," 2 but a great crowd kept following him, because they were beholding the signs he was performing upon those who were ill." are we to believe that the great crowd in john 6:2 has any significance ,or identifies a specific group of people with unique attributes?.

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Leolaia

I discuss them here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/96705/1/The-144-000-and-the-Great-Crowd-of-Revelation

They are everyone who was martyred in the great tribulation. They are dead; that is why they are in heaven.

313

Killing Ananias and Sapphira

by irondork in

i happened to be reading this part of acts yesterday, ananias and sappira getting zapped for lying about keeping a portion of their profits.

it occurred to me, that is, like, oh my gawd, soooo old testament!

is there any other place in the new testament where a person was immediately executed by god for their error?

Leolaia

The Society does not only interpolate "Jehovah" in places where an OT text is being quoted (e.g. "Jehovah" appears in the quotation from 1 Enoch 1:9 in Jude 14-15 in the NWT, and it is certain that no such name occurred originally there in 1 Enoch); it often does so elsewhere as long as there is a precedent in any earlier Hebrew translation of the NT:

Throughout the centuries many translations of parts or of all the Christian Greek Scriptures have been made into Hebrew. Such translations, designated in this work by “J” with a superior number, have restored the divine name to the inspired Christian Greek Scriptures in various places. They have restored the divine name not only when coming upon quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures but also in other places where the texts called for such restoration. To know where the divine name was replaced by the Greek words Ky′ri·os and The·os′, we have determined where the inspired Christian writers have quoted verses, passages and expressions from the Hebrew Scriptures and then we have referred back to the Hebrew text to ascertain whether the divine name appears there. In this way we determined the identity to give Ky′ri·os and The·os′ and the personality with which to clothe them. To avoid overstepping the bounds of a translator into the field of exegesis, we have been most cautious about rendering the divine name in the Christian Greek Scriptures, always carefully considering the Hebrew Scriptures as a background. We have looked for agreement from the Hebrew versions to confirm our rendering. Thus, out of the 237 times that we have rendered the divine name in the body of our translation, there is only one instance where we have no agreement from the Hebrew versions. But in this one instance, namely, 1Co 7:17, the context and related texts strongly support rendering the divine name. (Appendix 1D in the 1984 NWT Reference Ed.)

Why the Hebrew translations should have any authority on this (superior to actual textual sources) is beyond me.

Anyway, the NWT appendix lists the following J versions that interpolate a form of the tetragrammaton into Acts 12:23: J 7,8,10,13,15-18,22-24 .

20

Deaf Video : YouTube HOME page

by Red Piller in

jw
friends

sorry to start another thread on this.

but, the video made it to being featured on the home page.

that is amazing....... .

Leolaia

Wow. The Watchtower Society video has truly gone viral. Unreal.

Screencapped:

313

Killing Ananias and Sapphira

by irondork in

i happened to be reading this part of acts yesterday, ananias and sappira getting zapped for lying about keeping a portion of their profits.

it occurred to me, that is, like, oh my gawd, soooo old testament!

is there any other place in the new testament where a person was immediately executed by god for their error?

Leolaia

The only real parallel that comes to mind in the NT (involving members of the Christian community) is provided by Paul. In Acts 5:9, Ananias and Sapphira "agreed to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test" and they then receive death as their reward. Compare with what Paul says here:

"We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did [in the wilderness], and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. We should not test the Lord, as some of them did, and were killed by snakes. And do not grumble, as some of them did, and were killed by the destroying angel.... You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy?... A person who eats and drinks without recognizing the Body is eating and drinking to his own condemnation. In fact, that is why many of you are weak and ill and some of you have died. If only we recollected ourselves, we should not be punished like that. But when the Lord does punish us like that, it is to correct us and stop us from being condemned with the world" (1 Corinthians 10:8-10, 21-22, 11:28-32).

"That is why many of you are weak and ill and some of you have died." Paul interprets the recent deaths of certain people in the church as divine punishment for testing the Lord, just as the Israelites did in the wilderness (e.g. Numbers 21:5-6, Deuteronomy 6:16). In the Lukan narrative, Ananias and Sapphira were construed as putting the Lord to the test in a manner similar to Achan and they were punished like those in the OT.

This is ambiguous at best. It doesn't actually say God made them "weak and sickly" or put them to death. Paul might have meant that because of their actions, God withdrew His Spirit and persons who might have benefitted from miraculous healing weren't. But it does link the 'weakness, sickness and death' as a result of their actions involving the Lord's Evening Meal.

The thing is though, Paul directly compares the present situation with the situation of the Israelites in the wilderness who put God to the test and incited his wrath.

44

Who was the Gilead Student that jumped overboard?

by VM44 in

a gilead student from thailand.

a young thai girl who came to new york to attend the gilead school in upstate south lansing, new york, had a mental breakdown.

staff members pleaded with president knorr to send her home by plane, under supervision.

Leolaia

This is all I had at the time when I looked into this (back in 2006):

I am trying to do some research on the story of the Gilead student from Thailand who did not complete her schooling and who committed suicide on her return trip to Thailand by jumping off the ship (this happened in either 1956, 1957, or 1958).

There is no definite information about this woman's identity, and I checked Watchtower sources for women who were named as pioneers in Thailand in the 1950s, who would be possible candidates for investment as Gilead students in the U.S. These sources mention 5 women who were notable pioneers in Thailand in the 1950s, and three of these (Karun Chuthiangtrong, Buakhieo Nantha, and Sonsri Phanthuphrayun Darawan) are accounted for as still active in the JWs after 1958 (and are thus excluded from consideration). One of these however was a Gilead graduate in 1958: Buakhieo Nantha (Boa K. Nantah in the 1959 Yearbook ). According to Bill Cetnar, two women from Thailand were studying at Gilead at the same time and the suicidal student requested but was denied having a companion on her return trip home (a denial that had tragic consequences in the context of the story). This suggests to me that Ms. Nantha could have been the second Thai woman in Cetnar's story and that the unidentified woman was enrolled with her in the 31st class of Gilead (which graduated in the summer of 1958), unless Nantha was enrolled in the 30th class but graduated in the 31st class (if she was sidetracked by her friend's death). According to the 1959 Yearbook , 109/112 students of the 30th class graduated (i.e. 3 dropped out), and 100/103 students of the 31st class graduated (i.e. 3 again dropped out). If the 1958 Yearbook is to be believed, our suicide victim would not have belonged to the 29th class since all 103 enrollees graduated.

Since the only names released are those of the graduates, there is no published record of the name of Nantha's presumed companion. However, the 1991 Yearbook 's history of the Thailand mission mentions two other sisters linked to Ms. Nantha who cannot be accounted for as active after 1958. When Nantha was baptized in 1940, she was baptized with four other people including Kaeomalun Inthaphan (the sister of Chomchai Inthaphan) and Buakhieo Chaiwan (the wife of Kham-ai Chaiwan). Chomchai was an important early Thai JW, being the first primary translator of Watchtower literature into Thai. Kaeomalun was mentioned as playing a role in the spread of the JW message in Chom Thong, a district in Chiang Mai province, in the 1940s. But nothing is mentioned about her thereafter. No details are known about Buakhieo Chaiwan.

There could have easily (or even more likely) have been someone else at Gilead unnamed in the literature, particularly in light of the embarrassing chain of events, yet these two people are still viable candidates since there were so few JWs in Thailand (i.e. around 240) and even fewer pioneers (around 34), and both are linked to Ms. Nantha. Anyway, a lead is better than no lead. Do you know anything about these people or the case in question?

I may also look into Honolulu newspapers from 1957/1958 which might report a death at sea, which may help substantiate the story.

147

Psychoanalyzing the Governing Body as a Collective Body by what they cause to be written in literature and private letters:

by frankiespeakin in

now would any "psychologist" on the board and i use the term loosely as i am not one professionally , and have a very rudimentary hazy knowledge of analysis.. but one of the things jung had to do with the subject is the shadow to be properly analyzed one needs to recognize the shadow we all have we all have one.

and what happens when we repress a lot of things and stuff them into ones personal shadow, they get stronger and cause projection on the outside world that make one respond certain ways that might be termed as phobias or neurosis and even psychosis.. im sure we can spot a lot of denial and repression surfacing in what they cause to be published either publicly and in private correspondence.

perhaps even some phobias or out right neurosis.. i bett you a really skilled psychologist could have a fruit picking holiday with the stuff they find on the net already published far and wide for all to see.

Leolaia

Rutherford showed classic signs of narcissistic personality disorder and splitting, e.g. fantasizing himself as uniquely used by God and regarding himself as truly upright and those who opposed him as satanic, wicked, as members of the Evil Slave, etc. That seems to be the typical personality profile of a cult leader.

Woodworth and Johnson showed similar signs of mental illness (the former even claiming that he had been possessed by a demon). The movement in general seemed to attract fantasy-prone people who responded to Rutherford's black-and-white message. Knorr on the other hand seems more like to have had the profile of a corporate sociopath.

44

Who was the Gilead Student that jumped overboard?

by VM44 in

a gilead student from thailand.

a young thai girl who came to new york to attend the gilead school in upstate south lansing, new york, had a mental breakdown.

staff members pleaded with president knorr to send her home by plane, under supervision.

Leolaia

This is Bill Cetnar's version of the story, published first in the 1970s:

"Another incident shook my faith in the organization and its leadership. In 1956 or 1957 two young ladies came from Thailand to receive missionary training at Gilead. The pressures of learning the language and the other necessary subjects caused one of them to suffer a mental breakdown. She was periodically driven by an overpowering compulsion which caused her to take off her clothes and run through the building. She was sent to Bethel with the hope that she might be able to relax some and recuperate. But her condition grew worse and she tried to commit suicide by attempting to jump from the Bethel home.
"President Knorr told Worth Thornton, transportation secretary, to send the girl back to Thailand the cheapest way, as soon as possible. Arrangements were made to place her on a train to San Francisco and there she would board a ship for Thailand. When she learned of this she begged to be placed on a plane, or to have another missionary accompany her. She explained that when she had the spells, she could not control herself and if she were on a ship, she might jump overboard. Both of her requests were refused as being too expensive. Worth Thornton was very upset about this, a fact known to me because I had discussions with him about the matter.
"The girl was put on the train, and at San Francisco she boarded a merchant vessel. When the ship passed Hawaii, she had one of her seizures and jumped overboard. The ship circled back to search for her, but she was never found. Possibly she had been eaten by sharks. The ship notified the Society by radiogram about what had happened, and the message was received by Arthur Barnett, who was operating the switchboard at Bethel. Russell Kurzen, Bethel receptionist, also learned of the tragedy. Both men were shocked and they relayed the news to others in the Bethel family. President Knorr became very upset that the information had been given out, and both Arthur and Russell were removed from their positions.
"This episode bothered me very much. There were sufficient funds available to provide first-class travel accommodations and every luxury for the president of the Society — but we couldn't afford to care for the Witness girl properly so that she could get home safely. This callous decision cost her her life."

44

Who was the Gilead Student that jumped overboard?

by VM44 in

a gilead student from thailand.

a young thai girl who came to new york to attend the gilead school in upstate south lansing, new york, had a mental breakdown.

staff members pleaded with president knorr to send her home by plane, under supervision.

Leolaia

I tried to research a few years ago. I could look up what I found, but I remember I was unable to come up with a name or a reference to the incident in newspapers.

44

How Do The Two Masturbation Guys Feel?

by RayPublisher in

i'm wondering how they feel about their likeness being spammed all over the internet right now?

i'll bet they didn't sign up for this kind of attention.. it reminds me of an article wired magazine did on youtube a couple years ago about people that had their careers or social life ruined by a viral youtube video.. anyway, it would be interesting to find out who these guys are and what may or may not end up happening with them over this..

Leolaia

Notice how in this thread they are "the masturbation guys".....reminds me of that poor Falcon Heene kid who will forever be known as "Balloon Boy".

207

Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Recovery in

let's assume, as most of you probably believe, that the anointed christians are not the fds.

if the anointed are not the fds, who are?.

Leolaia

Here is my take on the Parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant. It is an insertion into the Matthean redaction of the Olivet discourse from Mark (ch. 13). It occurs in fact in a cluster of parables added to the discourse that deal with one common theme: an apparent delay in the parousia. The wicked servant says "my master is delayed" (Matthew 24:48), just as "the bridegroom was delayed" in the Parable of the Foolish Virgins (25:5), just as the master had been gone "for a long time" in the Parable of the Talents in 25:19. All three parables are missing in the original Markan apocalypse and they are inserted into a section commanding Christians to be on the watch (Matthew 24:44, cf. Mark 13:33). What the author of Matthew has done is develop the brief parable in Mark 13:34-36 (about a master going on a journey and leaving his house to his servants) into three new parables: the Parable of the Thief (v. 43-44), the Parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant (v. 45-51), and the Parable of the Talents (25:14-30). These additions were necessitated by the fact that the Markan discourse assumed that the parousia would closely follow the destruction of Jerusalem. That is why the author of Matthew rephrased the disciples' question ("Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign when these things are all to be accomplished?", Mark 13:4) in order to distinguish the two more clearly ("Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and the close of the age?", Matthew 24:3), and added a break between the tribulation and the parousia (instead of occurring "in those days", it would occur "immediately after those days").

Now, when we compare the Parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant with its source in Mark 13:34-35, it contains many new details about the servants and the situation involved. These details all derive from the story of Joseph in the OT. He is the model of the faithful and wise servant. (It is interesting how this Society has never noted this despite identifying itself with the servant in the parable). Joseph was a slave, his master (kurios in Genesis 39:3-4 LXX) was Potipher. Joseph was "wise" or "shrewd" (phronimos in Genesis 41:33, 39 LXX, the same adjective in the parable), and he was tasked with the responsibility for dispensing "gifts of grain" (sitodosias) during the seven years of famine (Genesis 42:19 LXX). Josephus (Antiquitates 2.189) stated that Joseph "gave rations of grain" (siton dounai memetrèmenon), and Artapanus similarly wrote that Joseph had invented food rationing. It is thus significant that in the Lukan version of the parable, the faithful and wise servant "gives rations of grain" (didonai to sitometrion) "at the appointed time" (en kairò); this especially calls to mind the character of Joseph, and readers would readily recognize that the "appointed time" for Joseph were the seven years of famine for which Joseph had to plan for ahead of time. We also read that "his master appointed him over his household" (katestèsen ho kurios epi tès oiketeias autou), and this wording is verbatim of what is said about Joseph in Genesis 39:4-5 LXX: "And Joseph found favor before his master (kuriou), and he was well pleased with him and appointed him over his house (katestèsen auton epi tou oikou autou) and gave everything that he had into Joseph's control. And after he had been appointed over his house (katastathènai auton epi tou oikou) and over everything he had (epi panta hòsa), the Lord blessed the Egyptian's house for Joseph's sake, and the Lord's blessing was on all his possessions (en pasin tois huparkhousin autò) in the house and in the field". The latter phrase is also used later in the parable to refer to the faithful and wise servant's promotion over all the master's possessions: "Truly I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions (epi pasin tois huparkhousin autou)" (Matthew 24:47). Compare also Psalm 105:21 LXX: "He appointed him lord of his house (katestèsen auton kurion tou oikou) and ruler over all his possessions (arkhonta pasès tes ktèseòs autou)". These verbatim parralels show clearly that the author was here thinking of Joseph. Now in the story of Joseph, there was an episode when his master had left and Joseph was in charge of the house. This was the incident involving Potipher's wife. This inspired the figure of the wicked servant in the parable. Potipher's wife kept Joseph's garment "until his master comes back home (heòs èlthen ho kurios eis ton oikon)" (Genesis 39:16 LXX), and the wicked slave in the parable is the one NOT doing what he was supposed to be doing "when his master comes back (hon elthòn ho kurios autou)" (Matthew 24:46). Potipher's wife accused Joseph of mistreating the household, saying that he berated her and tried to rape her. Similarly, the wicked servant in the parable is described as acting abusively, "beating hs fellow servants and eating and drinking with drunkards" (v. 49). The detail about eating and drinking reflects the following tradition about Joseph's behavior when his master was away from the household: "If my master was absent, I drank no wine; for three-day periods I would take no food but give it to the poor and the ill" (Testament of Joseph 3:5-6). The wicked servant in the parable is then punished harshly by his master and confined in a prison: "He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (v. 51). This parallels the punishment that Joseph received from his master: "And Joseph's master, taking him, put him into the stronghold, into the place where the king's prisoners are confined" (Genesis 39:20 LXX), "Her husband came and threw me in prison in his own house, then the next day he whipped me and sent me to the Pharaoh's prison....I was jailed, I was beaten, I was sneered at but the Lord granted me mercy in the sight of the prison keeper" (Testament of Joseph 2:2, 8:4). But Joseph was vindicated and later was appointed by Pharaoh as ruler over all of Egypt. This parallels the promotion of the faithful and wise servant over all of the master's posessions.

So clearly the author wants us to think of the story of Joseph when interpreting the Parable of the Faithful and Wise Servant. How was the situation of Joseph similar to the problem posed by the delay of the parousia? The servant in the parable faithfully dispenses food at the appointed time; this draws on the figure of Joseph in both planning ahead to save food in advance, as well as carefully rationing out what was needed in the present in order to make the food last the appointed seven years of famine. Christians, particularly those in positions of authority like Joseph, needed to imitate this example. They needed to anticipate the present time of difficulty following the Jewish war and follow through their pastoral obligations; it wasn't the time to lose hope or act as if the master was not going to be returning after all. The same lesson is expressed in the Parable of the Foolish Virgins. They did not prepare adequately and "took no oil with them" and so their lamps went out too early (Matthew 25:3, 8). This is parallel to the figure of Joseph in the Faithful and Wise Servant parable taking the precaution of saving grain during the seven years of plenty in order to have an adequate supply of food during the famine. The lesson in both parables is to be prepared in case things take longer to happen. The Parable of the Talents viewed the time of the apparent delay instead as an opportunity, as a time during which the servants can invest and reap further reward with interest.