Posts by Jonadab

70

Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride in

judge: sisters may pursue church case

the telegraph, feb. 26, 2003. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/.

by andrew wolfe, telegraph staff.

Jonadab

For those lurking .. do you notice that Jon says that he doesn't know everything but low and behold he can suddenly bring up a CP article on the issue.

The quoted CP article was in the newspapers last fall. That's when I read it. The newspapers didn't give all the facts of this case, nor have I seen a transcript of the trial. But you keep right on going and twist everything I say hawkaw. That seems to be your style.

You were the one who doesn't have any problem spewing out falsehoods that its all the elders fault when these terrible events happen. And now look at your last post ... low and behold .... you are NOW admitting that you actually knew that a lot of the Shelburne elders wanted to do the right thing and report the abuse.

I never said that it was all the elders doing what happened to Vicki. Yes, I did know from the newspapers that a number of the Shelburne elders wanted to report the abuse. That was included in the news reports too. My comments regarding elders was not specific to the case in Shelburne. It was a general comment regarding personal experiences that I have had and seen. If you had read my post properly you would have seen that and not twisted my words and misapplied them for your own use.

For the record I said:

I don't always agree with the things that elders do. I have had some serious disagreements with elders at times. On the other hand, despite the failings and imperfections of elders, I cannot reject the truth that this is still Jehovah's organization. Imperfect men make mistakes. Sometimes there are elders who abuse their power. Sometimes priorities get mixed up.

Next...

You were the one telling the Board that Holly was being dishonest when the record shows Attorney Brown was impressed with her honesty. Never mind the fact you completely ignored all the physical evidence that was present at the Berry trial.

The physical abuse you mentioned was in regard to the son. To my knowledge there was never any physical evidence presented to prove that sexual abuse of the girls ever took place. If you have knowledge of specific physical evidence presented at trial that proves that the sexual abuse took place I would be very glad to know about it. Do you have doctor's reports? Perhaps you know of DNA samples? Attorney Brown may well have been impressed by Holly's honesty, but were the girls or their mother given polygraph tests? Not that I am aware of. Paul Berry was given a polygraph test, I was told...and passed it.

Flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ... flip flop .... flip flop .... flip flop ....

It seems that you're doing quite a bit of flip-flopping. How long did it take you to type that out? BTW, I said that I didn't know whether you had ever been one of Jehovah's Witnesses. You never responded to that, so I must assume from your lack of knowledge about Jehovah's Witnesses that the answer must be NO. Next...back to your statement "And then a few months later Gower is moving up in the congregation " To my request for what you meant by the term 'moving up in the congregation' you replied...

ALL of Gower's privileges were re-instated and then he was allowed more privileges in the congregation - my understanding is he pioneered but did not move to MS or elder.

After time has passed and a show of repentance has been seen privileges such as answering at meetings, handling parts on the program or offering prayers at the meetings are returned progressively. Am I correct in assuming that Gower was publicly reproved as opposed to privately reproved? I am quite surprised that he wasn't disfellowshipped given the seriousness of the sin, the length of time he allowed to pass before finally 'confessing' and his reluctance to admit guilt.

After a short while he was allowed MORE privileges and WAS ADORED by the congregation.

MORE privileges??? Please be specific. ADORED by the congregation? Really? Why on earth would he be adored?

Because the congregation didn't know how her own father really treated her

I guess they know now. I wonder how the congregation views him now? One question I would really like you to answer hawkaw is if you think that Gower Palmer, if truly repentant, deserves forgiveness by God? In other words, do you feel that Gower has committed an unforgivable sin?

70

Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride in

judge: sisters may pursue church case

the telegraph, feb. 26, 2003. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/.

by andrew wolfe, telegraph staff.

Jonadab

Hawkaw, I never said that I knew all about all the facts of the trial. You still assume a lot and continue to be abusive even though I have not returned your abuse. I have not lied, nor have I made any attempt to be misleading in any of my questions. To my knowledge I haven't made any false accusations about the Berry case. I may not know all the facts, but neither do you. As far as my comments about Vicki's trial I have not knowingly made any false statements. You have only accused me of knowing more than I do and lying about hiding facts I didn't know. Shame on you.

Gee I can hardly wait for your comments on the Mike Moss scandal up in the Sault Ste. Marie

I don't know who Mike Moss is, nor have I heard about any 'scandal' in the Soo. (BTW, Glen How's name does not have an 'e' on the end)

I am aware that Frank and some of the other elders wanted to report the abuse. I also know that it is according to Society directives that elders phone Bethel to get legal directions when an accusation of abuse is reported to them. What were the reporting laws at the time? If the law stated that the elders were responsible to report the abuse and Bethel told them not to I would like to know the reason why they gave this advice. I don't see a conflict between God's law and that of Caesar.

I personally know of a case where an accusation was made (older teenaged boy accused of exposing himself to young girl and making her touch his penis). There were no witnesses to the incident (naturally), so it was a case of his word against hers. Bethel was called and the PO was told to tell the parents that there was nothing they could do, scripturally speaking. It was up to the parents to pursue it if they chose to. The boy's parents still don't know about the accusation. That was ten years ago.

ALL of Gower's privileges were re-instated and then he was allowed more privileges in the congregation - my understanding is he pioneered but did not move to MS or elder.

A publisher may pioneer only after one year has passed since a reproof has been given. That is the current rule. For a brother to be appointed as an elder or ministerial servant he would have to "be irreprehensible, . . . have a fine testimony from people on the outside, . . . [be] free from accusation" (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 10; Titus 1:7). Enough time would have had to elapse from the time of the sin for him to live down notoriety in the community. This does not apply to a child molester though.

w97 1/1 p. 29 Let Us Abhor What Is Wicked
For the protection of our children, a man known to have been a child molester does not qualify for a responsible position in the congregation. Moreover, he cannot be a pioneer or serve in any other special, full-time service.

Several newspaper articles said that...

Meanwhile, with the remaining elders convinced of his "spiritual repentance," Boer's father, Gower Palmer, rose through the ranks and enjoyed a level of privilege within the congregation normally reserved for the most respected members, said Momm. Canadian Press, Sep. 22, 2002
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/
By JAMES MCCARTEN

How could it be said that he 'rose through the ranks'? We don't have ranks. We have privileges of service, but that doesn't make one person better than another. Gower doesn't qualify for these privileges of service either.

I have been aware for some time that there were 'troubles' in the Shelburne congregation. I didn't know what it was all about until the trial started though. I've never met Frank Mott-Trille personally, but I do know many people who have used his legal services over the years. He always seemed to be quite competent.

23

Why Do Watchtower Sympathizers Post Here?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i really would like to know why such ones post on a anti-jw site.

is it for recognition?

to match wits with "apostates"?

Jonadab

I'll give you an honest answer minimus. I don't come to argue. That would be a waste of my time and yours. Once in a while I have seen a thread that interests me and I will engage in an exchange of thoughts from a different perspective or to ask a question. Most of the time I log in to get news from around the world that I might not get elsewhere. You all seem to have great resources for finding Witness related stories.

I am a recent member and I haven't posted much nor will I probably ever. I have met a few sincere ones here and I have received a few emails from them asking for my thoughts. I don't come here to 'save the misled' as some may accuse. I'm not here to apologize for what I hold to be the truth. I'm not looking for answers to personal questions. Paint me curious.

70

Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride in

judge: sisters may pursue church case

the telegraph, feb. 26, 2003. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/.

by andrew wolfe, telegraph staff.

Jonadab

I assume you have read those letters based on your knowledge of the trial. How you can come on this db and start lying that it was the elders calling the shots in this Boer mess - it is absolutely disgusting.

Hawkaw, you assume too much. I don't have your knowledge of the trial and I don't know about the letters. Care to enlighten me? I would also appreciate it if you would refrain from calling me a liar. I have tried to be civil despite your abusive reaction to my questions. I recognize that you have been very close to this case and have given Vicki support. I don't know your background, if you have ever been one of Jehovah's Witnesses or what your specific interest is in this trial. By your reaction I see a lot of pent up emotion being expressed. What the source of it is I don't know, but please try to be civil. I do have an interest in this matter and if you wouldn't mind sharing some more of your knowledge and insights about the case I would like to listen. I don't have 'inside' information, if that is what you think. All I know is what has been written in the newspapers.

then a few months later Gower is moving up in the congregation

What do you mean by 'moving up'? Are you saying that he has been appointed as a ministerial servant? Please explain.

70

Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride in

judge: sisters may pursue church case

the telegraph, feb. 26, 2003. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/.

by andrew wolfe, telegraph staff.

Jonadab

Thank you for your reply expatbrit. The results of the trial will be interesting to see. I'm looking forward to reading the judgement.

70

Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride in

judge: sisters may pursue church case

the telegraph, feb. 26, 2003. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/.

by andrew wolfe, telegraph staff.

Jonadab

Jona, you are one scurvy bastard.

Please see posting guidelines 1 & 3 regarding insulting language and swearing.

Did her dad abuse her ? You said you had your own opinions! Shit....if the old man admitted it.....why can't you?

Perhaps you should reread what I wrote gumby. My opinions were regarding the Berry case, not Vicki's. Gower Palmer has admitted guilt. There is no denying that.

I suppose since Charlie Manson was only the mastermind behind the "Tate" murders......they should have sued the actually killers.......but left him alone ....eh Jonadab?

Charlie Manson got what he deserved. How are you trying to use this analogy? Are you trying to say that the Watchtower Society masterminded the sexual abuse of a young girl? Did they have control over Gower Palmer to the extent that they caused him to commit this act? Of course not.

When abuse occurs, those held liable often go beyond the abuser. You might remember a well-publicized case of child endangerment last year. Twin girls died while in the care of their grandfather, who was transporting them from Alberta to his home in Ontario.
Was only the grandfather responsible, or were others culpable as well? Did the social worker in Alberta take appropriate steps to make sure the babies were being transported in a safe manner? Did the social services system in Alberta help or hinder care for those babies?
By the way, the grandfather was proved innocent. The social worker in Alberta was fired. In the same way the WTS should be held responsible for the way it handles or protects abusers, either directly or by its policies.

I remember hearing about this case at the time. Very sad. In reading the article it is of interest to note that serious injuries to the children resulting from abuse by the daughter or her boyfriend was not reported to the grandfather at the time of his taking custody. The twins also suffered from a metabolic disorder that was likely present from birth. The Alberta Children's Services was responsible for the physical welfare of the children. It seems that they didn't do their job properly and that is why a senior Alberta social worker was fired following the probe. The physical welfare of the children was their responsibility. The principal concern of the Watchtower Society and congregation elders is the spiritual welfare of the flock under their care. The scriptures state that it is the responsibility of the parents to provide for their children's spiritual, physical and emotional well-being. Obviously there was a failure within the home to protect Vicki. Gower bears the greatest burden of culpability because it was his abuse that caused this whole ordeal from the start. He failed his responsibility as a father and as the spiritual head of his family. He also brought reproach on Jehovah's name. Are the Watchtower Society and the Shelburne congregation elders responsible for the sexual abuse Vicki suffered? No. The abuse was not reported until after the fact. I don't intend to comment on the private procedings. Should Vicki have been given medical help and psychiatric counselling? She would have got it if she was my daughter. I don't always agree with the things that elders do. I have had some serious disagreements with elders at times. On the other hand, despite the failings and imperfections of elders, I cannot reject the truth that this is still Jehovah's organization. Imperfect men make mistakes. Sometimes there are elders who abuse their power. Sometimes priorities get mixed up.

You are a Canadian and likely a member of the Shelburne congregation or the Georgetown Bethal. Maybe you are Vicki's Aunt who was on here back in September. For what you guys did to Vicki and what continue do to to her and say about her and her lawyer behind their backs, you should be very ashamed of yourself.

I am a Canadian. I am not a member of the Shelburne congregation now, nor have I ever been. I am not a member of Georgetown Bethel, nor have I ever been. I am not Vicki's aunt, nor have I ever been accused of being female.

70

Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride in

judge: sisters may pursue church case

the telegraph, feb. 26, 2003. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/.

by andrew wolfe, telegraph staff.

Jonadab

My apologies to Vicki if my question offended her in any way. It was not my intent to add to the hurt she has already suffered. Obviously I don't have the knowledge of someone who has been in the courthouse during the trial. I also don't have a law degree. All the information I have is what I have read in the newspaper and from an individual or two who have been part of the Shelburne congregation. My purpose in asking the question was not to make Vicki 'look bad', as you put it hawkaw. I didn't know the answer to this question and this is why I asked. Thank you for the answer.

As far as Paul Berry is concerned the evidence presented convicted him, but the proof was not absolute. There was no DNA to prove the allegations. People have been sent to prison after extensive investigations and testimony by witnesses. Do the names David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin and Stephen Truscott ring any bells? The fact of the matter is that our present judicial system, as well-intentioned as it is, is fallible. Guilty people are freed and innocent people go to jail. It happens all the time. Type 'wrongful convictions' into any search engine and you will have many hours of reading to do. People spend years in jail for things they didn't do.

I understand that Paul Berry was given a polygraph test prior to the trial and passed it. I also understand that his wife and step-daughter, during a taped interview, admitted to lying to the police and prosecutor about various things. Is Paul Berry guilty of sexually abusing his daughter and step-daughter? I have my own opinions. But we will never know for absolutely sure. Only Paul Berry, the two girls and Jehovah know for certain.

70

Sisters may pursue church case-Another Blow to the WT

by DevonMcBride in

judge: sisters may pursue church case

the telegraph, feb. 26, 2003. http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/.

by andrew wolfe, telegraph staff.

Jonadab

I spent 2 weeks in trial against the wt, and feel I still have't done enough.

I have been following this case since it hit the headlines. As I understand it Vicki's father, Gower Palmer, has admitted to the abuse yet it is not Gower that is being sued. On the other hand the Canadian branch office of the Watchtower Society and the Shelburne elders involved in this case did not sexually molest Vicki and yet it is these ones who are on trial. With respect for Vicki and all that she has been through it seems to me that the wrong ones are in the hot seat.

In the case against Paul Berry he was convicted on the basis of his word against that of his wife, daughter and step-daughter. He has always maintained his innocence throughout the trial and even now. There was no attempt to gain a plea bargain. There was no evidence to convict him except the word of his former family. Half the congregation showed up to support him and about 2 dozen spoke in his behalf at his sentencing hearing. I've read the transcript. The courts may have convicted him, but I'm not convinced of his guilt. I do wonder what the goal of his family is in suing the Society. Is the whole thing motivated by money? I don't know.

I know that Vicki must be feeling deep hurt over her abuse. That abuse is not in question. I would like to know why Vicki isn't pursuing her father? I think that is a fair question to ask. Why sue the elders and the Society?

18

Theocratically Appointed "servants"

by zev in

jw
friends

well i got me a copy of the new wt 2001 cd rom, and started looking at it and learning how to use it.. this was the very first thing i stumbled across, which was a thing that always bothered me.

those of you who saw me and watched my phases as i left will remember that this topic was a major issue for me.. .

here is the article, in part:.

Jonadab

Why did Jehovah appoint Chitty, Greenleas and the worst apostate of all Ray Franz, to the governing body. Surely the Holy Spirit would at least make sure the governing body would be kosher if no one else.

If you want to use this line of reasoning you may as well ask why Judas Iscariot was allowed to be one of the 12 apostles.

91

Lurkers

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

seems that the page view out number the posters who actually reply to the thread.. my guess is that there's alot of active jws who are still active within' the so called "truth" are visiting this forum and reading all the threads.

i don't blame them for not wanting to reply for fear of being found out.. how many of you were still active when you found a forum like this one and lurked around for a long time?

how many of you left the organization as a result of reading this forum or other forums like it?.

Jonadab

Hey Jonadab!

I have two questions for you:

1. Are you counting time with all of us on the forum here????

No

2. And have you told your elders how you are spending your time?

I didn't realize that I owned them. No again.