Posts by AndDontCallMeShirley

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

AndDontCallMeShirley

Apparently Lars is the smartest guy in the room! He certainly has a dizzying intellect.

ANDDONT:

The "day" and "hour" does not mean you don't know the YEAR!

And this is precisely why EVERY end-time prophecy promulgated by various religious groups has failed!

LARS:

Well, this one didn't!

--

So everyone missed this end-time prophecy's fulfillment- except Lars? I'd say it wasn't much of a prophecy then. Epic fail if only one out of 7 billion people noticed it.

I'm out Lars, you win...you are the smartest guy in the whole wide world. Please don't forget us little people sitting up there all by yourself on the mountain. Peace!

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

First a person must awaken. What causes that?! I don't know. Then they must love truth. The love of truth will lead them to see that the WTBT$ is not God's sole channel for salvation. Unless they see those things, any other info, however logical, is useless. Still, if we have simple explanations available for any who awaken, without dwelling on things that cannot be proven or disproven, then maybe it will help those learning TTATT.

I was addressing my comments to Larsinger58. I got the two posts mixed up.

My apologies, DATA-DOG

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

AndDontCallMeShirley

Data-Dog

nobody knew in advance the DAY or HOUR of the 2nd coming and we still don't! We just know it happened sometimes on December 25th or 26th, 1992.

Huh? "Nobody knows, we still don't"....WE JUST KNOW it happened on Dec. 25 or 26, 1992.

Which is it? Nobody knows? Or, it's the specific dates you just mentioned? This is a glaring contradiction.

The "day" and "hour" does not mean you don't know the YEAR!

And this is precisely why EVERY end-time prophecy promulgated by various religious groups has failed!

AndD, just for your information, there are three things the WTS associate with 1914: 1) The end of the gentile times, 2) the 2nd coming, linked to 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem per the "7 times" prophecy, and 3) the beginning of the "last generation" of 80 years.

I am aware of this. Incidentally, WT originally taught that 1914 was the final end, Armageddon, not the beginning of the end. And it taught until 1943 that Jesus Returned invisibly in 1874.

One one is correct, #3. The "last generation" begins with a world war, that is, "nation vs. nation and kingdom vs. kingdom," so 1914 is still a good year for the 'last generation which would see the second coming before that generation ended, which ends after 80 years at the most, in 1994 per Ps. 90:10. So that is ONE THING that is correct.

Ah, the "generation" argument! WT has had 8 or 9 failed interpretations of the meaning of that word. Please don't say that you are talking about an "overlapping" generation! However, #3 in your explanation, is not correct either.

Where in your Bible does is say that "generation" is linked to a world war? Mine doesn't say that. Jesus simply said "wars and reports of wars". Welcome the entire history of mankind.

Where in your Bible does is say that a generation ends after "80 years at the most"? My Bible does not have that scripture in it, either. Psalm 90:10 is a general observation on human life, not a benchmark to prop "end time" prophecies on. Additionally, that scripture in no way says 80 years = a "generation", no matter how much you want it to.

so 1914 is still a good year for the 'last generation

again, wishful thinking, but you have no proof.

I appreciate your comments and have no desire to get into a debate. You are certainly entitled to your opinions. However, you have fallen into the trap so many others have: you've glued a lot of speculations together, formed fictions you personally wish to be true, then made everything fit your pre-supposed outcome no matter how fanciful they are.

Still, if we have simple explanations available for any who awaken, without dwelling on things that cannot be proven or disproven, then maybe it will help those learning TTATT.

Agreed. And well said.

4

Traditions of men, Mark 7;8 Matt.23;5-12, A little clarification please.

by jam in

jesus speaks of traditions of men in matt.

23;5-12 use special.

religious titles to distinguish ourselves above other bretheren.

AndDontCallMeShirley

Reading the context will explain what Jesus was talking about.

The Pharisees in particular had placed rules-legalism- above the more important "weightier" matters of the Law. If you look at verse 23 in that same chapter, you'll see what Jesus was talking about. The Pharisees were observing the rules of the Law by offering the 10% tithe as a sacrifice while at the same time were practicing injustice, being unfaithful and unmerciful. As Jesus said, these things (tithes) were "binding" but not at the disregard of the other things (mercy, faithfulness, justice).

Jesus continually stressed that rules were never more important than showing kindness to others. At Mt. 9:13 he said, "go then, and learn what this means, 'I want mercy and not sacrifice'".

His illustration of breaking the Sabbath Law in order to rescue an animal that falls into a pit is a case in point. Keeping the Sabbath was not as important as saving a life.

You don't have to agree with the edicts of the Law or believe in the Bible; I'm just pointing out what's there.

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To your point: tradition is notnecessarily the same as culture. If a person was born in India, and knows no other way of life, he or she can hardly be faulted for not being a Christian if they've never been exposed to Christianity (or any other religion for that matter). Tradition, in a religious context, is simply adhering to a certain way of doing things, even if you know they are not required or Biblical, in the case of Christianity. For example, The Catholic Church openly admits that many of their "traditions" have no Biblical support, but they do it anyway because it's tradition.

"setting aside the commandments of god": which god? India/Hinduism has thousands of them. In man's history there have been about 30,000 of them. So, which tradition and which god are you setting aside in order to please the next, supposedly better, one? Take your pick- you have a .00003% chance of being right!

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

AndDontCallMeShirley

THE GLADIATOR

LOL ! Funny stuff. Considering that most Newbies, and many long-time JWs, don't even know the significance of 607, 1914, 1919, or any other WT dates, you are right- you can't get too deep with them.

The WT has been reduced to publishing "connect-the-dots" Bible "education". Enough said.

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

AndDontCallMeShirley

Hey Newly Enlightened

I think there are some people on JWN that like to debate and argue and stir up controversy. They don't really care if they're right, they just want to win arguments. Intellectually you can't defeat them because they are too full of themselves to just step back and realize they don't have all the answers. And, none of them are experts in the areas they debate- they are amateurs who sit around and read the work of real experts, then pretend they are just as knowledgeable as someone with a university degree and 40 years of experience in their chosen field.

Did you notice that neither ___ or ____acknowledged our points? They are still engaged in a personal cat fight without ever seeing what the original poster (you) or anyone else has said that should settle the issue. Your thread has been hijacked! Stay out of it and let the kids play, you can't win!

34

Elders! Elders everywhere!

by Julia Orwell in

jw
friends

an elder came around this morning at 9am to ask if my husband wanted to come with him on a bible study.

my husband nipped from the bathroom to the bedroom in his undies to get dressed, while i talked to the elder!

the elder talked about how he just happened to think my husband might be free this morning, and just happened to get a call from someone wanting a bible study, and then he said to me, "why don't you come visit my house some time?

AndDontCallMeShirley

Hi Julia

In my experience any interest in you by the Elders has an ulterior motive. They usually show up only when they think they can initiate judicial action against a person. It's like chumming the water- the sharks will show up! Their usual routine shows they have no real concern in actually helping someone who needs it. This is why Shepherding calls are virtually non-existent in most congregations- the Elders can't count time for it (reason #1), and they are not genuinely interested in anyone so why waste the time? I do realize there are occasionally good, decent Elders who are genuine, but they are the exception, not the rule. Elders who try to promote an official Shepherding program usually find themselves in no-man's land and a black sheep of the Body.

I know JWs that have literally begged the Elders for an encouraging Shepherding visit, only to be ignored- repeatedly. But, if that same Publisher makes a mistake, or someone makes a false accusation against them that the Elders want to pursue, they'll have an 'investigatory' committee put together so fast it'll make your head spin!

Ignore them, they'll lose interest-fast!

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

AndDontCallMeShirley

"Genius is the ability to reduce the complicated to the simple." - C.W. Ceram

"There is a master key to success with which no man can fail. Its name is simplicity. I mean, in the sense of reducing to the simplest possible terms every problem that besets us. Whenever I have met a business proposition which, after taking thought, I could not reduce to simplicity, I have left it alone." - Sir Henry Deterding

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I always have a good laugh over these discussions. Debates over historical gaps, Neo-Babylonian business records, lunar eclipses, etc.

What is the root end-goal of these debates? In JW Land, it's to "prove" that Russell and the WT were 'chosen by God' to predict the end of the Gentile Times, a period from 607-1914. Whether Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 or 587 does not matter, the simple fact is you cannot draw a straight timeline from that event to 1914 (or any other date)! Additionally, not one thing Russell predicted would occurr in 1914 actually happened. A 100% failure! Hardly the trait of someone who claimed to be God's hand-picked "faithful and discreet slave". Considering that all the significance WT attaches to 1914 was originally attached to the years 1799 and 1874 by Russell, it is a massive, epic fail that was doomed from its inception. Every individual and religious group that has attempted to predict an 'end time' date based on Jerusalem's destruction has failed, over and over again!

The mental gymnastics and confounding lines of reasoning some resort to to prove this-or-that point nullifies most arguments. If you can't explain it simply then most likely your basis is hopelessy flawed.

So, for those who argue these dates with the idea you can somehow figure something out that everyone else in history has missed, remember this:

"But no one knows the date and hour when the end will be-not even the angels. No, nor even God's Son. Only the Father knows." Mt. 24:36, Living Bible

And, keep in mind these words- 300 years ago Sir Isaac Newton wrote:

"This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fanciful men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, and by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail."

Trying to figure it out is a Fool's Errand. The Bible tells you straight-up you will fail!! Why start?

All secular archaeologists, historians, scholars (people with actual university degrees) say 587 BCE

Wathtower- not one scholar, historian or archaeologist in the ranks, says 607 BCE. You do the math!

Move on.

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

AndDontCallMeShirley

Good point, BOTH.

To argue the 607 BCE date based on Ezekiel and Jeremiah a JW would either have to deny the Bible, or they would have to deny WT doctrine.

Another commonly overlooked point is this: Even IF Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE, it still does not lead to 1914 as the end of the "Gentile Times" for this simple reason: two different systems of measurement.

This would be equivilent to mixing the metric system with the Standard System, and saying 3 meters + 3 feet = 6 feet. Sorry, it doesn't work!

The Bible writers used a lunar calendar of 360 days a year; we today use a solar calendar of 365 days a year- the Gregorian Calendar. It was introduced in 1582 a.d., 2,000 years after Jeremiah and Ezekiel. You CANNOT draw a straight line from 607 to 1914 no matter how creative you are! That genius Russell didn't seem to understand this, just like he originally didn't know there is no "zero" year in the timeline and he originally miscalculated the 1914 date as well.

Besides, the WT/Russell didn't invent the 607-1914 timeline anyway. JA Brown did, and he was wrong too! And so were the Adventists, who borrowed it from JA Brown, and Russell copied the Adventists. Fools following fools, all the while declaring themselves to be smarter than everyone else.

Great post Brother Of The Hawk! Your point is proven very simply: look at the dates Jeremiah and Ezekiel were written. Case closed.

80

new member- my story

by AndDontCallMeShirley in

"that which can be asserted without evidence, can.

be dismissed without evidence.

" - christopher hitchens.

AndDontCallMeShirley

punkofnice:

"My breaking point was that when a person is judged in a JC, the 'judgement' is said to come from Jehovah(TM) himself.

My question was 'Why is the accused given 7 days to appeal Jehovah's(TM) inerrant desicion?'"

Exactly! It shows the illogical contradiction of the WT and its policies.

If Holy Spirit is really guiding the Elder's decision, then allowing seven days to appeal is, in reality, questioning the Holy Spirit's decision.

Since the WT allows seven days to appeal, that reveals the GB doesn't even believe Holy Spirit influenced the Elders! Otherwise there would be no reason to appeal.

Good observation!

The other thing about JC procedure I could never agree with is, that sometimes in as little as 10-15 minutes of discussion by the Elders, they decide the spiritual fate of a JW who may have been faithful for decades. The Elders take little if any time to actually consult all the relevant scriptures, then go home and think about it for a day or two (or more) then come to a decsion. The process is unloving and legalistic, and has nothing to do with spiritually "restoring" someone who's made a mistake. It's about policy, procedure and punishment, nothing more.

The basis WT uses for DF is completely false anyway and takes scriptures obscenely out of context. This so-called "loving arrangement" is nothing more than a tool used to instill fear and compliance into the JW ranks.

---

ShirleyW:

I feel closer to you already! lol.

To answer your question, Re: talks on the convention program: I pointed out earlier that I had talks on the "Theocratic Ministry School" portion of the Circuit Assembly program. Any publisher "in good standing" and "exemplary"can be used for those parts. I was a full-time pioneer at the time.

"So you will be the official "male Shirley" of the board!"

Yes, I guess that is so. Just don't call me Shirley!