The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk 83 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Brother of the Hawk

  Hello everyone. I was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.

  I recently finished reading "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" by Bro. Carl Olof Jonsson, ( third edition). Phew!! What a read. Beyond any shadow of a doubt he solidifies 586/587 b.c.e. as to the destruction of Jerusalem. By the 3rd edition he now has 15 different lines of evidence. But I must admit it is a very deep read and If you cannot follow his lines they become confusing, almost frustrating. At least for me they were, but I did not throw in the towel. But for most JWs, I think, if these lines were shown to them they would miss the point.

  No offense with that statement intended. I just know how I would have reacted if presented with those lines of evidence.

  So how can we make this as simple as possible?

  I think I have found the answer, and can put it into terms they (JWs) can relate to. The next time they come to your door, or if you wish to engage them in this topic, simply ask to see the NWT and turn to page 1546. There you should find the "Table of the Books of the Bible". Scroll down to Jeremiah and Ezekiel, then slide over to the column where the date is when the writings were completed. You will see that Jeremiah was completed in 580 b.c.e. and Exekiel completed his writing in 591 b.c.e.

  Now the conundrum, remembering that at that time in history dating was counting backwards, i.e. 607, 606 ,605, ect ect.. If these two bible writer's finished their writing in 580 and 591, and you believe in the 607 date, then these two men were false prophets and were merely writing from a historical perspective, and wrote in a way to make themselves appear to be prophets. (Note the time difference. Alot of history can be written in 27 and 16 years) Now if Jeresalum was destroyed in 587/586 as ALL historians and archeologists agree upon, then Jeremiah and Ezekiel were true prophets.

  Now the perplexing question is to ask regarding this line of thinking. Ask which date is true, only one date is true and the other is a lie, which is it? If they stick with 607 then they are in fact sinning against Gods Holy spirit, the Bible. Now if they say 587/586 now they are sinning also against Gods Holy spirit. i.e. His spirit directed org. and its Governing body.

  See you cannot have both dates. One is a LIE and one is the TRUTH. Lets see them wiggle out of this one. Either way in their minds it becomes a sin against Holy spirit.

  Affectionately,

  Brother of the Hawk
• 

  Amelia Ashton

  *** it-2 p. 32 Jeremiah, Book of ***

  When Written. For the most part, the book of Jeremiah was not written at the time he declared the prophecies. Rather, Jeremiah evidently did not put any of his proclamations into writing until he was commanded by Jehovah, in the fourth year of King Jehoiakim (625 B.C.E.), to dictate all the words given him by Jehovah to date. This included not only words spoken about Judah in Josiah’s time but also proclamations of judgment on all the nations. (Jer 36:1, 2) The resulting scroll was burned by Jehoiakim when Jehudi read it to him. But Jeremiah was ordered to write it over, which he did through his secretary Baruch, with many additional words.—36:21-23, 28, 32.

  The remainder of the book was evidently added later, including the introduction, which mentions the 11th year of Zedekiah (Jer 1:3), other prophecies that Jeremiah wrote down at the time he was to deliver them (30:2; 51:60), and the letter to the exiles in Babylon (29:1). Additionally, the proclamations uttered during the reign of Zedekiah and the accounts of the events after Jerusalem’s fall, down to about 580 B.C.E., were added later. It may be that, although the scroll written by Baruch was the basis for a large part of the book, Jeremiah afterward edited and arranged it when adding later sections.

  A few "evidentlys" in there and a "may be".
• 

  Phizzy

  A simpler challenge to JW's is,

  "Can you show me a number of experts in the field of historical dating that have no connection to the WT and yet support 607BCE as the date for Jerusalem's destruction ?"

  They will promise to get back to you on that. Don't hold your breath whilst waiting.
• 

  whathappened

  Thanks for simplifying this. It is too confusing a topic for me to grasp and these comments were a help.
• 

  AndDontCallMeShirley

  Good point, BOTH.

  To argue the 607 BCE date based on Ezekiel and Jeremiah a JW would either have to deny the Bible, or they would have to deny WT doctrine.

  Another commonly overlooked point is this: Even IF Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE, it still does not lead to 1914 as the end of the "Gentile Times" for this simple reason: two different systems of measurement.

  This would be equivilent to mixing the metric system with the Standard System, and saying 3 meters + 3 feet = 6 feet. Sorry, it doesn't work!

  The Bible writers used a lunar calendar of 360 days a year; we today use a solar calendar of 365 days a year- the Gregorian Calendar. It was introduced in 1582 a.d., 2,000 years after Jeremiah and Ezekiel. You CANNOT draw a straight line from 607 to 1914 no matter how creative you are! That genius Russell didn't seem to understand this, just like he originally didn't know there is no "zero" year in the timeline and he originally miscalculated the 1914 date as well.

  Besides, the WT/Russell didn't invent the 607-1914 timeline anyway. JA Brown did, and he was wrong too! And so were the Adventists, who borrowed it from JA Brown, and Russell copied the Adventists. Fools following fools, all the while declaring themselves to be smarter than everyone else.

  Great post Brother Of The Hawk! Your point is proven very simply: look at the dates Jeremiah and Ezekiel were written. Case closed.
• 

  Think About It

  I too liked that line of reasoning. Never heard it using that angle before, but it makes logical sense. However, brainwashing is usually more ingrained than logic & sense can wake up in a JW.
• 

  AnnOMaly

  Nope. Unfortunately, the reasoning is flawed, Hawk - you're presenting a false dichotomy.

  If WT chronology and its consequent dating of Bible books are correct, then 607 BCE was the destruction of Jerusalem, Jeremiah was an eyewitness of Judean events and prophet from 647-580 BCE and Ezekiel wrote about the Jewish exile and prophesied between the years 613 and c.591 BCE.

  If WT chronology is incorrect, out by 20 years, but the books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel are contemporaneous with the demise of the Judean kingdom, Jerusalem's destruction and its aftermath, then Jerusalem's destruction was 587 BCE, Jeremiah wrote from 627 BCE to 560 BCE and Ezekiel wrote between the years 593 BCE and c.571 BCE.

  It also doesn't follow that, just because the COMPLETION of their books was after Jerusalem's destruction, all their prophetic pronouncements before Jerusalem's destruction were post-dated and that their own internal dates for those prophecies were fabricated.
• 

  Amelia Ashton

  I really wanted Brother of the Hawk to be right. I even got my bible out, something I haven't done in almost 4 years!
• 

  Finkelstein

  Since the total years of servitude from the very start beginning (@605 BCE) years were close to 70 , 70 was used since

  to the ancient Israelites, 7 was the most sacred number.
• 

  Pterist

  Thanks brother Hawk

  Here is my 2 cents for what it's worth

  In the WBTS 70 years understanding, the following 3 events has to occur during this exact time period of 607-537 and EACH EVENT for the duration of 70 years.

  1. The land paying off its sabbaths 2. Destruction of temple to the return to build it. 3. The exile at the time of the temple's destruction to the exiles return. Point 1. Has already been discussed in this forum and most would agree that consistent with Leviticus 25 that 7x7 sabbaths is the penalty for land paying off its sabbaths and liberation in the Jubilee year (50 years) Point 2. Also has been discussed at great length that shows Jeremiah 25:12 as 70 years rulership given to Babylonian power to accomplish Gods judgementS on Jerusalem and the surrounding nations. Point 3. I believe this is the biggest hole in their understanding. Base on scripture the MAIN exile occurred under King Jechoniah's group and this is the FIRST group mentioned to return after the exile under (King) Zerubbabel. Matthew 1: 11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon. 12 After the exile to Babylon: Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, 13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,

  Ezra 2

  New International Version (NIV)

  The List of the Exiles Who Returned

  2 Now these are the people of the province who came up from the captivity of the exiles, whom Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon had taken captive to Babylon (they returned to Jerusalem and Judah, each to their own town, 2 in company with Zerubbabel, Joshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum and Baanah):

  The WBTS states that the exile from the destruction of Jerusalem under Zedekiah to their return is 70 years ..537BC. There is NO REFERENCE in the Bible to ANY of these exiles returning from this specific group. The group that did return as specified above in Matthew 1/Ezra2 was with Zerubbabel, making their exile based on WBTS dating approximately 80 year !!!!! The WBTS can NOT justify that ALL these 3 events occurred during this specific period. Just ONE event to be incorrect proves their error. Shalom