Posts by herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

. . . and there isn't even a single verse that says God is Three Persons or Three Anything!

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

one does not have to believe the trinity to believe that TWO (Jesus and God) are the One God.

We should study the Bible to discover what it says in harmony with the original intention of the Author. Trinitarians hunt for proof texts to substantiate what they already believe.

herk

51

Heb. 1:6 (even in the NWT !) shows Jesus not to be an angel, but Jehovah

by hooberus in

for the sake of argument lets assume that the current nwt is correct in rendering proskuneo as "obesiance" .

"but when he again brings his firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: 'and let all god's angels do obeisance to him" hebrews 1:6 the new world translation.. 1. if all (as in 100%) of the angels of god do obeisance to him, then he could not be an angel.

all (as in 100%) must include michael.

herk

Kenneson,

Are Augustine and Calvin and other theologians the last word on whether Jesus was the Angel of the Lord? I believe in the Trinity, but I don't believe that Jesus was the Angel of the Lord.

While some trinitarians such as yourself are not convinced that the angel of the Lord is the "2nd Person of the Trinity," you may find the following of interest:

We must remember, then, that in some cases in the Old Testament God Himself appeared in human form as an angel.--Angels: God's Secret Agents, by Billy Graham (Doubleday), p. 33.
The person of "the angel of the Lord" finds a counterpart in the personification of Wisdom in the Sapiential books and in at least one passage (Zach., iii, 1) it seems to stand for that "Son of Man" whom Daniel (vii, 13) saw brought before "the Ancient of Days".--Catholic Encyclopedia.
Tertullian regards many of these passages as preludes to the Incarnation; as the Word of God adumbrating the sublime character in which He is one day to reveal Himself to men (cf. adv, Prax., xvi; adv. Marc., II, 27; III, 9: I, 10, 21, 22). It is possible, then, that in these confused views we can trace vague gropings after certain dogmatic truths regarding the Trinity, reminiscences perhaps of the early revelation of which the Protevangelium in Ge., iii is but a relic. The earlier Fathers, going by the letter of the text, maintained that it was actually God Himself who appeared.--Catholic Encyclopedia.
As He [Christ] is ?the Son of God?, so also is He the ?angel? or ?messenger? of the Lord.--Cyclopedia of Biblical Theological & Ecclesiastical Literature by McClintock and Strong, Volume I, "Angel", p. 226.
The formula of earlier dogmaticians is still held by some: Whenever the name of Jahweh or divine works and worship are ascribed to the Angel in Scripture, this Angel must be understood as the Son of God. Accordingly, this angel is often referred to as the Logos or the Angelus increatus, and His appearances are regarded as appearances of the preincarnate Son of God. Others hold that ?the angel of the Lord? is not necessarily to be interpreted as reference to the preincarnate Christ but that manifestations of this ?angel of the Lord? are nonetheless theophanies, or manifestations of God.--Lutheran Christian Cyclopedia.
The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael (the archangel) with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the ?child? and the archangel in Revelation 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in [Daniel].--The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, 1930, Vol. III, p.2048.
The appearances of "the Angel of the Lord" to Abraham at Mamre (Gen. 18:2, 22. Compare 19:1), to Jacob at Peniel (Gen. 32:24, 30), to Joshua at Gilgal (Josh. 5:13,15), were of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ. They were "foreshadowings of the incarnation," revelations before the "fullness of the time" of the Son of God.--WebBible Encyclopedia.

What do you believe about Jesus? How are you different in your beliefs on Jesus from Jehovah's Witnesses and Trinitarians, since you seem to say you don't fall in either camp?

In the Bible, when a prophet speaks it is said to be the Lord who speaks, not of course because the prophet is the Lord himself but because the prophet has been commissioned to represent and speak for the Lord. The word of the prophet is equal to the word spoken by the Lord himself. Though the prophet is a mere man, he is to be honored by other men as far superior to themselves. For all intents and purposes, he is God when he speaks since God has put his own words in the mouth of the prophet. This was true of Jesus. Moses had foretold concerning him, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.'" (Deuteronomy 18:15, 16)

As explained by Peter, this was the view of all the prophets who looked forward to the coming of the Messiah: "Repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. Moses said, 'The Lord God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to him you shall give heed to everything he says to you. And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days." (Acts 3:19-24)

The Jews never expected that the Messiah would be God himself. Neither did the apostles and other earliest Christians. This is clearly evident from the following texts:

And the crowds were saying, "This is the prophet Jesus, from Nazareth in Galilee."--Matthew 21:11.
But others were saying, "He is Elijah." And others were saying, "He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of old."--Mark 6:15.
And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him. And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ [Messiah]. And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law, then he took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said, "Now Lord, you are releasing your bond-servant to depart in peace, according to your word; for my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the presence of all peoples, a light of revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel." And his father and mother were amazed at the things which were being said about him. And Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, "Behold, this child is appointed for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and for a sign to be opposed."--Luke 2:25-34. [Note that Joseph and Mary were amazed, not that Mary's son was God, but that he was the promised Messiah who would have a great effect upon the Gentiles as well as the Jewish nation.]
Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited his people!" Now when the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet he would know who and what sort of person this woman is who is touching him, that she is a sinner."--Luke 7:16, 39.
[Jesus said:] "Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem."--Luke 13:33.
And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people."--Luke 24:19.
They asked him [John], "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." They asked him, and said to him, "Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"--John 1:21, 25.
The woman said to him, "Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet.--John 4:19.
Therefore when the people saw the sign which he had performed, they said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world."--John 6:14.
Some of the people therefore, when they heard these words, were saying, "This certainly is the Prophet."--John 7:40.
So they said to the blind man again, "What do you say about him, since he opened your eyes?" And he said, "He is a prophet."--John 9:17.
[Stephen said:] "This is the Moses who said to the sons of Israel, 'God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren.'"--Acts 7:37.

While there are several texts that seem to indicate that Jesus existed before his human conception and birth, they need to be understood as the Jews and Christians understood those texts in Bible times, not with the mindset that prevails today among those who have had Western thinking drummed into them from their youth and upward.

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

51

Heb. 1:6 (even in the NWT !) shows Jesus not to be an angel, but Jehovah

by hooberus in

for the sake of argument lets assume that the current nwt is correct in rendering proskuneo as "obesiance" .

"but when he again brings his firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: 'and let all god's angels do obeisance to him" hebrews 1:6 the new world translation.. 1. if all (as in 100%) of the angels of god do obeisance to him, then he could not be an angel.

all (as in 100%) must include michael.

herk

51

Heb. 1:6 (even in the NWT !) shows Jesus not to be an angel, but Jehovah

by hooberus in

for the sake of argument lets assume that the current nwt is correct in rendering proskuneo as "obesiance" .

"but when he again brings his firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: 'and let all god's angels do obeisance to him" hebrews 1:6 the new world translation.. 1. if all (as in 100%) of the angels of god do obeisance to him, then he could not be an angel.

all (as in 100%) must include michael.

herk

Kenneson,

why did he need to incarnate again in the New Testament?

While I think your question isn't quite clear in meaning, it needs to be asked of trinitarians and JWs. As my cartoon shows, I'm not the one who claims either that Jesus was the angel of the Lord or that he was an incarnation. It's the trinitarians who make that claim, based on the teachings of Augustine, Calvin and others of their favorite theologians. And while JWs rarely if ever use the term "incarnation" with reference to Jesus, they actually do believe in it since they claim Jesus preexisted as the archangel Michael. So, why are you asking me instead of them? You lost me somewhere.

The hypocrites in this matter are the trinitarians who chide JWs for saying Jesus was an angel when they themselves also claim that he was an angel.

herk

51

Heb. 1:6 (even in the NWT !) shows Jesus not to be an angel, but Jehovah

by hooberus in

for the sake of argument lets assume that the current nwt is correct in rendering proskuneo as "obesiance" .

"but when he again brings his firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: 'and let all god's angels do obeisance to him" hebrews 1:6 the new world translation.. 1. if all (as in 100%) of the angels of god do obeisance to him, then he could not be an angel.

all (as in 100%) must include michael.

herk

13

The Governing Body and the Board of Directors

by hooberus in

the governing body and the board of directors

modern society claims

"from the incorporation of the watch tower bible and tract society of pennsylvania in 1884 until 1972, the president of the society exercised great authority in jehovah's organization, while the governing body was closely associated with the society's board of directors.

herk

Russell was a scumbag, and he was a manipulator and a liar. Just read the transcript of his divorce trial, and you'll see what I mean. The Judge in that trial excoriated him and gave good reasons for doing so. Big time.

My reading of Russell's own account of the divorce episode, as found in the Watchtower itself, did much to convince me that JWs have been an abusive religion from their very beginning. He came across as a male chauvinist pig if ever there was one.

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

Kenneson,

Then you go through great lengths to try to prove to me that some verses indeed show that special agents like Moses, David, angels are functional Gods by office. And the Trinity doctrine is confusing?

No hard feelings, but I'm puzzled why you just can't seem to get it. I'm not the one who decided to call angels, Moses, David and others God. The concept goes back thousands of years and originated with God himself. I've shown you the scriptures on the topic, and I was hoping they would clarify the matter, but apparently they haven't.

Sorry for wasting your time.

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

Kenneson,

But I do accept the original Jewish sense of God.

Somehow you're missing my point, and I don't know why. I keep mentioning it, but it just seems to blow over as if I never mentioned it. I'm not faulting you for that, but I really do wish you would analyze your statement: "But I do accept the original Jewish sense of God."

After making that statement, you proceeded to quote several texts that indicate to me that you really did miss my point.

We agree that there is only one true God. But where we don't seem to agree is in understanding "the original Jewish sense of God." The ancient Jews believed as you and I do that there is only one true God, but they also believed that God's special agents should be viewed as God. They are not God in the ultimate sense of the word, but they are God because they represent him. David and Solomon, for example, sat upon "the throne of David." (1 Kings 2:12) But David's throne was also called "the throne of the Lord." (1 Chronicles 29:23) David was not the Lord actually or in reality. But because he spoke for God to the people, his words were to be obeyed as if they came from God himself.

That is what I mean when I speak of the Jewish sense of God. The Jews didn't invent that concept. It came from God himself. Concerning the angel that God sent to speak to the people of Israel, he said, "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since My name is in him." (Exodus 23:21) The angel, as God's representative, was to act in God's name. Often, as shown by the context in each case, angels were called "God" or "the Lord." One example is in Genesis 16:9-13:

Verse 9 - "the angel of the LORD said to her"
Verse 10 - "the angel of the LORD said to her"
Verse 11 - "The angel of the LORD said to her"
Verse 13 - "she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, 'You are a God who sees'"

God's authority was transferred to the angel because God's name was "in him."

Jesus also had God's name "in him." He said, "I have come in my Father's name." (John 5:43) And, "the works that I do in my Father's name, these testify of me." (John 10:25) Jesus was not the Father, and he was not God actually or in reality. Like the angel who was called God, Jesus was God in the sense of speaking and acting for God. He could even forgive sins just as the angel had been empowered to do.

When the crowds waved palm branches as Jesus rode into Jerusalem, they didn't shout "Blessed is he who comes as the Lord himself." Instead, "The crowds going ahead of him, and those who followed, were shouting, 'Hosanna to the Son of David; blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest!" (Matthew 21:9; Mark 11:9) "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord; peace in heaven and glory in the highest!" (Luke 19:38; John 12:39)

Jesus was not the Lord God, but he came in the name of the Lord God as his instrument and agent. That is how the apostles understood it. This becomes plain in what Peter told the assembled Jews at Pentecost: "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- this man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. But God raised him up again, putting an end to the agony of death." (Acts 2:19-24)

Jesus was not God, but he was empowered to act for God. "God performed through him." This is plain from what he said and how a crowd reacted: "Jesus ... said, '... But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins'--then he said to the paralytic, 'Get up, pick up your bed and go home.' And he got up and went home. But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men." (Matthew 9:6-8) Jesus was not able to forgive sins and to perform powerful miracles because he was God, but because God "had given such authority to men."

The verses you supplied prove beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus is not God. The Father alone is God. If Jesus is also God in the same sense as the Father, then we have two Gods, not one. Trinitarians by means of mental gymnastics try to explain away that their doctrine teaches more than one God, but their reasoning bears no resemblance to anything in the Bible. Well-known historians have traced the origin of the Trinity back to paganism, not to the earliest Christians.

herk