herk

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Posts by herk

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  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

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  herk
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  herk
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  herk
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

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• 

  herk

  UD,

  No, you just condemned your own ignorance of the Scriptures. Stephen was no more praying than Adam was when he spoke to God in Eden or when the Jews spoke to angels. The apostle John was not praying when he said to an angel in heaven, "My lord, you know." (Revelation 7:14) Jesus gave specific instructions on how to pray. He said we should pray to the Father, not to him or to the Holy Spirit. Just as the cartoon emphasizes, you are going beyond the Scriptures and teaching falsely. You are just like the scribes and Pharisees who went beyond what was written in an effort to show themselves as more righteous than the common people. Just as Jesus condemned them, he condemns you. We need have no doubt about that, since all who are disobedient to Christ will have to answer for their self-righteousness.
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  herk
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  herk
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  herk

  42 REASONS WHY WE KNOW A TRINITARIAN
  IS DELIBERATELY LYING WHEN HE SAYS THAT
  HE DISCOVERED THE TRINITY ALL BY HIMSELF

  1. He is aware that the Trinity means 1+1+1=1, but his own common sense tells him that such arithmetic indicates ignorance.
  2. His own common sense tells him that three persons called God are equal to 3 Gods.
  3. Common sense tells him that a man with two natures would have to be similar to Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, with each nature unaware of the mind of the other, meaning that each nature functioned as a separate person. That amounts to making the Trinity into a foursome.
  4. He is aware that Christ said his Father is greater than he is and greater than all.
  5. He is aware that Christ is the Son of God and that the expression God the Son does not appear in the Bible.
  6. He is aware that the demons identified Christ, not as God, but as God's Son.
  7. He is aware that Christ was begotten and hence must have had a beginning.
  8. He is aware that a son cannot be as old as his father, yet the Trinity says God and Son are equal in existence.
  9. He is aware that the apostle Paul taught that the Father alone is God and that the Father is the God of Christ.
  10. He is aware that Christ said that the God he worships is his Father.
  11. He is aware that God is the Head of Christ, according to the apostle Paul.
  12. He is aware that Christ is the Mediator between God and men.
  13. He is aware that it is idolatry to believe that more than one person is God.
  14. He is aware that the Bible nowhere mentions God the Son or God the Holy Spirit, though it does mention God the Father.
  15. He is aware that Jesus is the way to God and therefore could not be God himself.
  16. He is aware that Christ was sent by God and that Christ never sends God anywhere.
  17. He is aware that God alone sits upon his universal throne while Jesus sits at God's right hand and therefore could not be God himself.
  18. He is aware that Christ does not know what the Father knows about the time of Christ's return.
  19. He is aware that no one has seen God or can see him, yet men have seen Christ.
  20. He is aware that Christ is the image of God and therefore could not be the God whom he reflects.
  21. He is aware that Christ came to teach his Father's doctrine and not his own.
  22. He is aware that Christ is under God's authority and that God is under the authority of no one.
  23. He is aware that Christ belongs to God and therefore could not be the same as the God who is his owner.
  24. He is aware that Christ was given all things by God and that no one can give the Father anything since he owns all things.
  25. He is aware that whatever power Christ has was given to him by God.
  26. He is aware that God cannot die, yet Christ did die.
  27. He is aware that Christ said his Father is Lord of heaven and earth.
  28. He is aware that God appointed Christ a Kingdom but that Christ cannot appoint God to anything.
  29. He is aware that Christ came in his Father's name and not in his own name (which he could have done if he was equal with the Father).
  30. He is aware that God promised to raise up a prophet like Moses, not someone who would be co-equal with God.
  31. He is aware that God gave revelations to Jesus, something that Jesus cannot give to God who knows all things.
  32. He is aware that Jesus is his Father's servant and yet the Father is servant to no master.
  33. He is aware that Jesus got down on his knees and prayed to his Father and that the Father prays to no one.
  34. He is aware that Christ called the temple the house of his Father and not his own house.
  35. He is aware that the Bible says all good things come from the Father.
  36. He is aware that the Holy Spirit descended upon Christ but never upon his Father who is the giver of the Spirit.
  37. He is aware that the Father alone will restore Israel.
  38. He is aware that Jesus said he came forth from God who is the Father.
  39. He is aware that Trinitarians themselves teach that their doctrine is an unexplainable mystery, and he knows that what cannot be easily explained cannot be easily discovered without assistance from others.
  40. He is aware that Jesus was tempted with evil but God cannot be tempted with evil.
  41. He is aware that God knows all things but that Jesus learned and grew in wisdom.
  42. He is aware that while Jesus said he and his Father are one, he also prayed that his disciples would be one in the same way with him and his Father.

  Herk
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  herk

  LittleToe,

  To deny that the Pharisees had a theology problem is to throw out two thirds of what's written in the four Gospels. Jesus wrangled with them almost every day for over three years, not principally about their lack of love, but about their misinterpretation of the Scriptures. They trusted in their own teachings and had abandoned God's teachings. That was the underlying reason why they lacked love.

  The same is true today. In over 60 years I have never met a Trinitarian who is such due to a sincere love of the Bible. All of them believe it because of what men have said, not due to discovering it themselves. The doctrine has been carefully developed and phrased over centuries of time. It is stated in a particular way and requires special terminology for its explanation - terminology that is not found in the Bible. Those who argue for it make a point of giving original Hebrew and Greek terms a special meaning that often conflicts with what many translators and other scholars have said. There is no way that the average reader, left to himself, would discover a doctrine so well hidden in the Scriptures if, indeed, it was actually there.

  Like many Trinitarians, you claim that people who believed in the Trinity were persecuted for that belief. But where is the evidence for such a bold claim? History is silent. On the other hand, millions of Jews, Muslims and non-Trinitarian Christians were hounded to death by both Catholic and Protestant Trinitarians. Here history is so loud that it is deafening with reports about the Inquisition and Dark Ages, the expulsion of non-Trinitarians from Spain and other lands in the 15th century, their expulsion from Poland in the 16th century, their burnings at the stake in Protestant England even as late as the 17th century, etc.

  Yes, I do doubt your sincerity and love. If you were genuinely fair, you would have made an equal issue of all the rantings and ravings of the Trinitarians in this thread. The thread even got its start by someone who blazed away with both barrels loaded as if out to kill.

  Your objection to my cartoons is additional evidence of your bias. All you can come up with is that cartoon editorials have been misused and abused, but you can't point to a single one of mine that fits that category. I haven't lied or deliberately distorted anything. It is sheer pettiness to say the Devil doesn't have horns and carry a pitch-fork. A cartoon is only a cartoon, and generally people know what's meant by such an illustration. The same can be said about meeting Peter at heaven's gate or about seeing two members of the Trinity hiding behind clouds. The purpose of the cartoon is to convey a message. If that message is truthful, it will not be offensive except to people it exposes or those who have an overly-sensitive concept of what's right and wrong.

  I imagine you will continue to find objections to anything I say. You have that right. But I urge you to try being a bit more fair in your criticisms. Try to see that where there is smoke there is fire and that there can be and often are abuses involving name-calling and offensiveness on both sides of this issue of the Trinity.

  Herk
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  herk

  LittleToe,

  I doubt you would call Jesus a bigot. Yet, he minced no words in denouncing the scribes and Pharisees for their heavy leaning upon tradition instead of abiding by the Holy Scriptures. We have scribes and Pharisees today who go by other names. Still, they do the same thing. They ignore the Scriptures and lead others astray. They deserve to be exposed by every legal and honourable method that is available.

  Jesus should have remained silent if your statement is valid that salvation does not depend upon theology. Apparently the way to salvation is narrower and harder to follow than most people realize. While many in the past were willing even to give up their lives in defense of their unitarian beliefs based upon the Bible, there are those today who would say they died for a foolish cause. I happen to be one who doesn't think so.

  Additionally, I think it is a lack of genuine sincerity that prompts a person to criticize unitarians for their aggressiveness while closing his or her eyes to the profusely mean-spirited statements made by Trinitarians.

  Cartoon editorials are a long-honoured method of exposing falsehood and clarifying truth. They only offend those who deserve to feel hurt as a consequence of their wrongdoing and wrong teaching.

  herk

  Edited by - herk on 7 December 2002 9:42:37
• 
  740

  The Trinity

  by meadow77 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

  their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

  the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  herk

  UnDisfellowshipped,

  Thanks for your message that seems to reach out for a handshake of peace. You ask a few questions, so here is my response.

  Comparing "worship" with "praise, honor and glory" is like comparing apples and oranges. Only God is to be worshipped in the highest sense of the word. It's true that proskuneo is the word for worship in Revelation 5:14 and that word can be used with reference to homage even to men. However, when the account uses the word strictly in relationship with God and no other, it isn't truly fair and honest to apply it also to the Lamb. In the context, both God and the Lamb are rendered praise, honor and glory. The account specifically says so. But it does not say or even hint that both receive worship.

  You asked me to "show the Scriptures" that prove "God doesn't pray to anyone." Prayer is an often discussed topic in the Bible, yet there isn't a single passage that even hints that God prays to anyone. This is proof enough to the vast majority of Bible students that God doesn't pray. It should be proof enough for any reasonable person. In view of all that the Bible teaches about prayer, many sincere Bible students believe that it borders on blasphemy to even think that God prays to anyone.

  That is one of the evils of the Trinitarian dogma. Since Christ prayed, it opens up the thought that God the Father also prays. That is exactly the kind of thinking that pleases the Devil. He just thrives on anything that degrades God and that paints him as lesser than the awesome God who is above all others in position of authority.

  When I wrote that God is immortal, indestructible and not subject to death, I was simply quoting the Bible. It boggles my mind that your comment on that is, "You ignore what most Trinitarians actually believe." If quoting Scripture contradicts what Trinitarians believe, that should tell you that something is awfully wrong with the teaching.

  You wrote:

  God the Son ADDED Human Nature to His Nature of God, and came to Earth.

  That is not taught in the Bible. It is a teaching invented by imperfect and fallible men. Before accepting it, any truthseeker should test it with the Bible. A thorough analysis of the Bible will clearly show that it nowhere contains expressions or concepts like "God the Son" or "human nature of God."

  God the Son's HUMAN NATURE DIED -- God the Son's Nature of God NEVER went out-of-existence.

  Such a statement makes a mockery of Christ's agony and death. It leads to the devil-inspired conclusion that Christ did not really suffer and die, that it was all a big show. There isn't the slightest suggestion of this false theory anywhere in prophecies or in the narratives concerning the Messiah. So what grounds would any lover of truth have for believing it?

  You see what I did in that Post was combine several different unitarians' beliefs into one Thread, sort of like what certain people have been doing on this Thread about trinitarians' beliefs.

  Again the comparison is like apples and oranges. Trinitarians do not dare believe differently than other Trinitarians. If they do, they are almost immediately branded as unorthodox, heretical or spiritually illiterate. Those who formed the doctrine over centuries of time carefully weighed and measured their every word and phrase. The teaching is now embodied in creeds that have been cautiously formulated.

  On the other hand, there is complete freedom and great variety among unitarians. Things do, however, get as rigid and strict as Trinitarianism does in denominations like the JWs, Christadelphians, Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals, all of whom vary greatly in their teachings on the origin of Christ. Obviously, they can't all be right either. The problem with just about every brand of "Christian" religion is that people are prone to follow men instead of doing their own independent reading and study of the Bible. While unitarianism is one of the predominant themes of the Bible, many unitarians are as uninformed and misled as their Trinitarian brethren.

  That is why in most all of my Threads, I tell everyone to check with the Scriptures, and make sure that what I say is true, and if it is not true, DO NOT BELIEVE IT.

  Searching back through all your posts, I couldn't find a single one where you said anything of the kind.

  I have kept an open mind the entire time.

  I find that very difficult to believe. Most of the time you argued strenuously and even stubbornly for the Trinitarian position. I saw absolutely no evidence of an "open mind." But I will take your word for it, with the idea that your assertions and contentions perhaps did not always match what you were thinking.

  I appreciate your expressions of friendship and well-wishes. Be assured that I wish the same for you. In proportion to your love for God and his truth, I pray he will bless you richly in your progress as a Christian.

  Herk