Posts by herk

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

Trinitarian and non-Trinitarian Christians have their disagreements, and sometimes we inadvertently allow ourselves to get embroiled in deep disputes, but we are united in many areas. We know, for example, who our real enemies are.

You ridiculers like to talk about love, but we've yet to see you practice it. If you had your way, your "love" would be shown up for the hatred that it really is. You showed your true colours in the Soviet Union where you banned the Bible and slaughtered millions who would not cooperate with your godless enterprise. That is what you practice as your mindless and insane definition of love. Sure, you will deny this, and you will continue to paint Christianity as evil. But you keep forgetting the fact that even Jesus said many would come in his name to whom he would show no recognition. (Matthew 7:21-23) On the other hand, there is no salvation in anyone but Jesus. Whether we believe he was the Son of God or God the Son, we're in a much better position for salvation than those who reject him and who ridicule those who speak in behalf of the cause for which he gave his life in sacrifice.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

UnD,

You wrote:

The reason I said "You can only choose One", is because I was using the same argument that some people have used, when they say "Who is the Only True God, The Father or Jesus, you can only choose One".

An examination of several translations will show that Jesus cannot be viewed in John 17:3 as "the only true God."

"to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent." (Amplified Bible)
"to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, the one you sent." (Contemporary English Version)
"You are the only true God. If they know you, and Jesus Christ whom you sent, they will live for ever." (Worldwide English [New Testament])
"to know thee who alone art truly God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (New English Bible)
"that people know you, the only true God, and that they know Jesus Christ, the One you sent." (New Century Version)
"that they know you, the one and only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent." (The New Testament in Contemporary English)
"to know you, the only true God, and to know Jesus Christ, whom you sent." (Today's English Version)
"knowing you as the only true God and knowing Jesus your messenger as Christ." (The New Testament in the Language of the People)
"to know thee the one true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent as thy Messenger." (The Twentieth Century New Testament)

Herk

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

UnD,

You wrote:

So, to me (these are simply my beliefs, nothing more), the Scriptures say that the Father and the Son are the Only True Lord, just like the Father and the Son are the Only True God. Calling the Son "The Only True Lord" does not exclude the Father from also being our Only True Lord, just like calling the Father the "Only True God" does not exclude the Son from also being the "Only True God".

As far as I know, the Scriptures nowhere state that "the Son" is "the Only True Lord." Kindly give us the chapter and verse, please.

Herk

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

UnD,

You wrote:

Non-Trinitarians (such as Herk) change the definition of "God" in the Verses that they can't accept, for instance, John 20:28 and Hebrews 1:8.

First of all, in this entire thread I have said not even one word about John 20:28. So, it is an untrue characterization to suggest that I've said something when I really haven't.

It is also untrue to say that I have changed the definition of God at Hebrews 1:8. I gave you the Bible definition and supported it by what Trinitarians themselves say about the verse. They point out that David and others of his royal line were addressed as "God" by the people because they represented God and spoke in his place. That is not a definition that I or any other non-Trinitarians dreamed up. That is what the Bible plainly shows.

Thus, if David could be addressed as God, surely Jesus his descendant also can, especially because he is the greatest King in David's royal lineage.

Herk

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

UnD,

You wrote:

First of all, the Greek word used for "God" both times in John 1:1, is the same word - "theos". When Non-Trinitarians read John 1:1, here is how they read it: The Word was with God Almighty, and the Word was an inferior, lesser god.

Is there any reason to find fault with what non-Trinitarians believe here? As has been shown, there is but one God, and yet there are also gods who are inferior.

"For the L ORD your God is theGod of gods ... and the awesome God." (Deuteronomy 10:17)
"Give thanks to the God of gods." (Psalm 136:2)
"Surely your God is a God of gods." (Daniel 2:47)
"Then the king will ... magnify himself above every god and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods." (Daniel 11:36)

Similarly, there is one Lord over all, and there are inferior lords:

"For the L ORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords." (Deuteronomy 10:17)
"Give thanks to the Lord of lords." (Psalm 136:3)

Jesus is also called "the Lord of lords," but "it is evident that he is excepted who put all things in subjection to him." (1 Corinthians 15:27)

God is also King over all other kings, and yet, Jesus is also called "King of kings." Again, there is one exception! Christ is not King over the one who anointed and exalted him as King. Ephesians 1:19-22 explains that "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory," exalted Christ when "he ... seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, ... And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him as head over all things to the church." While God has always been King of kings, Christ becomes such only after his resurrection, never before.

God raised up others in the ancient past to be "king of kings." For example, we read at Ezra 7:12: "Artaxerxes, king of kings, to Ezra the priest, the scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace." Ezekiel 26:7 says: "Thus says the Lord G OD , 'Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army." And Daniel addressed Nebuchadnezzar by saying, "You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory." (Daniel 2:37)

So, being "Lord" or "King" does not mean that the person is Almighty God, even if he is called "Lord of lords" and "King of kings." God is always above all others, including Christ.

Herk

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

UnD,

You keep bringing up this same question again and again, even though it was thoroughly answered days ago. And I think it's amazing that you don't get the point from what Lew just wrote.

Please read the texts carefully:

"For us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." (Ephesians 4:4-6)

The first text says plainly that there is "but one God, the Father." Thus, the "one God" does not include any others. The Father alone is God. Then it says there is "one Lord, Jesus Christ." In the mind of the Trinitarian, this means that Jesus Christ is also God, but that is not what the verse says. It specifically rules out Jesus Christ as God when it says there is "but one God, the Father."

Similarly, the second text enumerates persons and things that are not all the same or equal:

"One body"

"One Spirit"

"One hope"

"One Lord"

"One faith"

"One baptism"

"One God and Father"

So, there is One God. Is it the Spirit? No. Is it the Lord? No. It is the "One God and Father."

The Father has always been God and Lord, but the Son has never been the Almighty God, and he has not always been the Lord. How did he become the Lord? The answer is given in Acts 2:36: "God has made him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

Jesus said: "All authority has been given to me." (Matthew 28:18)
John 3:35 says: "The Father ... has given all things into his hand."
John 5:22 says: "The Father ... has given all judgment to the Son."
Acts 5:31 says: "He is the one whom God exalted."
Acts 10:38 says: "God anointed him."
Acts 10:42 says: "This is the One who has been appointed by God."

You wrote:

Is that "One Lord" and "Only Lord" The Father or The Son? You can only choose One -- either The Father or Jesus.

This is a strange question for you to be asking since you do not believe that "only" means "only" in John 17:3. You have a selective problem. Trinitarians give meanings to words that suit them and become disturbed when non-Trinitarians stick to the dictionary definitions. For example, the Father is the "one God." In fact, he is "the oneandonly God." (John 5:44) But you do not let that stop you from expanding the idea of the one God to include other "persons."

But now let me show you how the Bible answers your question in Jesus' discussion with the Jews in John 8:39-41:

"They answered and said to him, 'Abraham is our father.' Jesus said to them, 'If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.' They said to him, 'We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.'"

First, notice that the Jews said, "Abraham is our father." But later they said, "we have one Father: God." If we were to use the logic of Trinitarians, Abraham would have to be God since the Jews said they had only "one Father" and they said both Abraham and God were their father.

Clearly, the Jews viewed Abraham as their father in a different sense than the way they viewed God as their father. And that is the sensible view to take when we read that Jesus is our "one Lord" and our "only Lord." Jesus is "Lord" in a different sense than the way God is "Lord."

No one made the Father God and Lord, but Jesus is Lord because God made him such.

Similarly, Jehovah is the "God of gods." (Psalm 138:1) Obviously the gods over whom he is God are not gods to the same degree as he is. The same is true of Jesus. He is called God, but he has a God that he worships and serves, a God who is greater than he is. (Micah 5:4; Revelation 3:12) Jesus is "Lord of lords and King of kings," but 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows that "it is evident that he is excepted who put all things in subjection to him."

Herk

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

Even a child can tell whether a Trinitarian (like a Baptist) or a non-Trinitarian (like a Jehovah's Witness) is really allowing the Bible to speak for itself. Both sides have their biases, and rather than listen to either side, we ought to accept only what the Bible clearly says. The weight of evidence is on the side of the non-Trinitarians, as I see it:

THE DISHONEST TRINITARIANS

They have invented their own language. They teach that the word "person" means one thing for God and something else for everyone else. An ordinary person is just that, a single solitary person. But Trinitarians will say that the God who is called "he" and "him" is composed of three persons. They say that about no one else, only God, and they expect everyone to accept their invention, which is obviously not found anywhere in the Bible.

They keep changing their definition of "God," even within a single verse. For example, they say "God" is a Trinity. But at John 1:1, where the Bible says "the Word was with God," they do not believe that "God" is the Trinity in that phrase. In this case, "God" is the Father and the Holy Spirit (or the Father alone), according to them. Then the verse says, "and the Word was God." Here the Trinitarians give "God" still another meaning. Now "God" is only the second person of the Trinity, in actuality one third of "God."

They do not accept commonly used words, even simple ones that little children understand. For example, John 17:3 quotes Jesus himself as saying that the Father is "the only true God." Trinitarians do not believe that Jesus meant "only," as in "one and only." Jesus was addressing monotheistic Jews when he said that his Father is "the one and only God." (John 5:44) The Jews did not believe in a Triune God, so they understood who Jesus was talking about. But Trinitarians, by forcing the Trinity into Jesus' teaching, can only assume that he himself was thinking of a different sort of God than the Jews had in mind.

They deny reality. They will not admit, even to themselves, that they believe, as pagans do, in more than one God. For example, if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are also God, they certainly cannot be part of the "only" true God. (John 17:3) Further, if they are not the "true" God, the Trinitarian doctrine forces the belief that they are false gods.

They even deny the very words of the Bible. For example, 1 Corinthians 8:6 does not say that there is "one God - the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." Instead, it says that "there is but one God, the Father." First Timothy 2:5 also says that "there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Despite what these verses say, Trinitarians claim that the one God is not the Father by himself, and they claim that Christ Jesus is equal to the Father, not "between" God and men.

Herk

Edited by - herk on 12 December 2002 13:19:36

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

herk

LittleToe,

I must have missed your reply, so would you mind restating it?

What is this - some sort of game? I write. You don't bother to read. And then you want me to re-write what you didn't read the first time! You've got as much time on your hands as I do. Search for it yourself.

The same is true concerning what I wrote about Revelation 5. UnD and I spent several pages on that.

If you spent nearly as much time replying to the issues raised, rather than spitting venom, this thread might have been far less that 35 pages, and far more constructive.

Yes, just as you say, you're a very loving and friendly Christian, one who has every right to brag to the world how wonderful he is. It just oozes out of nearly everything you write. Thanks, in addition, for the intentional and/or inadvertent reminders I get in nearly every post.

Herk