Posts by herk

133

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1

by hooberus in

in this series i hope to discuss some common verses used by the watchtower to "disprove" the trinity and deity of the lord jesus christ.

the first one is 1 corinthians 8:6: .

"but to us there is but one god, the father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one lord jesus christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

herk

Hooberus,

I think it's an ultimate stretch when you claim that Stephen was praying to Jesus at the moment he cried out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." The context shows that at that moment he saw Jesus in a vision, and so it was appropriate to appeal to the one he loved and served as God's appointed Lord. That was no more a prayer than when Adam and Eve conversed with God in Eden and when Cain spoke with God after the fall. While there are a few texts that seem to suggest that prayers were offered to Jesus, honesty should compel anyone to acknowledge that there is some controversy in each case as to how the text should read. Jesus' instructions were that we pray to the Father, not to his Son.

Herk

72

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus in

on a previous thread many other "troublesome" verses have been brought up.

i will take some of these and start theads for them.

due to the complexity of the subject, several threads each covering one or two verses will be started, lord willing.

herk

Hooberus,

You seem to have missed my point. It is not as a "man" that Jesus is said to worship God. It is as the glorified "Lord Jesus Christ." In your other thread you equated God and Lord, claiming that the Father could not be Lord if Jesus is not God. It seems that you are now saying that God still means God but that Lord does not mean Lord in the divinely ultimate sense.

Herk

72

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus in

on a previous thread many other "troublesome" verses have been brought up.

i will take some of these and start theads for them.

due to the complexity of the subject, several threads each covering one or two verses will be started, lord willing.

herk

Hooberus,

If Jesus is Almighty God, and if he worships another Almighty God, then the Trinity does indeed teach that there is more than one Amighty God. What other conclusion is there after reading the following texts?

At Romans 15:6, Paul said that Jesus has a God just as we do. There he urged us to glorify that One who is "God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
At 2 Corinthians 1:6, Paul did not urge us to bless Jesus as God. Instead, he wrote: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
At 2 Corinthians 11:31, Paul again mentioned "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus."
In Ephesians 1, Paul twice spoke of the One who is "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory." (Verses 3 and 17)
At Revelation 1:6, we're told that Jesus "has made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father."
At Revelation 3:2, Jesus calls someone else "my God."
At Revelation 3:12, Jesus four times calls someone else "my God."
In the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb at Revelation 15:3, Jesus sings to his Father, "Great and marvelous are your works, O Lord God, the Almighty."

It should be noted that all of the above texts refer to Jesus' relationship with his God after his glorification.

Herk

72

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus in

on a previous thread many other "troublesome" verses have been brought up.

i will take some of these and start theads for them.

due to the complexity of the subject, several threads each covering one or two verses will be started, lord willing.

herk

Little Toe,

I don't think possessing "the divine nature" makes one equal to God the Father. For example, we read at 2 Peter 1:4: "For by these he has granted to us his precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust."

So, as I see it, Jesus possessed "the divine nature" even before the cross. According to Ephesians 4:13, 24, that appears to be God's goal for each one of us, that "we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. ... and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth."

And Hebrews 12:10: "He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share his holiness."

Also, 1 John 3:2: "We know that when he appears, we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is."

Ultimately all Christians will be divine. I see a hint of that in Revelation 3:9 where God promises that "indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you." (NKJV, ASV, KJV, KJ21, Wycliffe)

Such worship does not make the receivers of the divine nature equal with Almighty God or partners in the Godhead. As I see it, it simply shows that their position is somewhat like that of Jesus and Moses and the ancient judges and kings of Israel, namely, that they "serve as God."

Herk

72

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus in

on a previous thread many other "troublesome" verses have been brought up.

i will take some of these and start theads for them.

due to the complexity of the subject, several threads each covering one or two verses will be started, lord willing.

herk

Little Toe,

I believe Exodus 4:16 is a key to knowing the relationship between God and Jesus.

Others in addition to Moses and Jesus were appointed to "serve as God":

At Exodus 3:2, 11 and many other places, the angel of the Lord is addressed or spoken of as God.
In Psalm 45:6, the sons of Korah addressed the king of Israel: "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever." They didn't believe in a Trinity where God the Father and Israel's king were each part of a universal Godhead. In the following verse they mentioned the God who is served by the king. But they knew why it was proper to speak of the king as God. The king was God's chief spokeman and representative. Just like Moses, he spoke to the people for God. What he declared as king was as sacred and as weighty as if God himself had said it since his authority came from God.
Jesus pointed out to the Jewish leaders that each of the ancient judges of Israel was called God. (Psalm 82:6; John 10:33-35) They judged for God and their decisions were to be accepted as if they came from God himself.

It seems logical to me that Thomas addressed Jesus as God [ho theos] because Jesus 'served' in the same way that the angel, Moses, and Israel's judges and kings 'served' as God. We get a glimpse of this Jewish view of the Messiah's relationship with God at Luke 7:16: "Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, 'A great prophet has arisen among us!' and, 'God has visited his people!'" The people saw in this "great prophet" a visit by God himself to his people. They would have glorified Jesus as God if they viewed him as Almighty God himself, but they did not.

When Moses prophesied the coming of Jesus, he said "'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people." (Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:22; 7:37) Moses did not say that God would raise himself up. The one to be raised up would be a man like Moses, and he would be raised up "from among your own people."

God further told Moses: "I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him." (Verse 18)

The Jews clearly understood Moses and did not expect the promised prophet to be God himself. This is evident in the question they asked John the Baptist: "They asked him, and said to him, 'Why then are you baptizing, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?'" (John 1:25)

It is also evident at John 6:14 and 7:40: "Therefore when the people saw the sign which he had performed, they said, 'This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.'" "Some of the people therefore, when they heard these words, were saying, 'This certainly is the Prophet.'"

The apostles did not expect the prophet to be God himself. This is plain from John 1:45: "Philip found Nathanael and said to him, 'We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the Prophets wrote--Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.'"

All who 'served' as God received their power and authority from the God they served. That was true even of Jesus. God the Father did not receive his authority from anyone. He is the one who gives authority to others. And so, Jesus said,

"All things have been handed over to me by my Father." (Matthew 11:27)
"All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18)
"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand." (John 3:35)
"Even as Thou gavest [the Son] authority over all mankind." (John 17:2)

We read elsewhere:

"Jesus [knew] that God had given all things into his hands." (John 13:3)
"[God] seated him ... far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come. And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him as head over all things to the church." (Ephesians 1:20-22)
"Therefore also God highly exalted him, and bestowed on him the name which is above every name." (Philippians 2:9)
"God ... has spoken to us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things." (Hebrews 1:1, 2)
"He was faithful to him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all his house." (Hebrews 3:2)
"[Jesus] is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to him." (1 Peter 3:22)

Every knee bending at the name of Jesus is the same as bending the knee to the Father since Jesus at the present time is acting in behalf of the Father. But it will not always be that way. Someday, as 1 Corinthians 15:28 points out, "the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all in all." Even now, when Jesus possesses all authority in heaven and on earth, he is not in actuality equal to his Father but serves as Mediator "between" God and men. (1 Timothy 2:5)

I find it strange that trinitarians seem able to blot all of this from their view of God and Christ and that they at times even appear offended when others can't accept their view. I for one was threatened at a prominent Baptist seminary with damnation to eternal flames simply because I said I was struggling with the teaching and trying to understand and accept it.

Herk

72

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 2

by hooberus in

on a previous thread many other "troublesome" verses have been brought up.

i will take some of these and start theads for them.

due to the complexity of the subject, several threads each covering one or two verses will be started, lord willing.

herk

_______ If JESUS is GOD, is MOSES also GOD? _______

133

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1

by hooberus in

in this series i hope to discuss some common verses used by the watchtower to "disprove" the trinity and deity of the lord jesus christ.

the first one is 1 corinthians 8:6: .

"but to us there is but one god, the father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one lord jesus christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

herk

Mizpah,

But the important thing is to allow each other different viewpoints without judgement. We can still respect other viewpoints without agreeing with them.

I'm in total agreement with your statement. However, I completely lose all respect for anybody, regardless of his religious persuasion, if he blatantly lies to my face as Ellderwho has. After I patiently and painstakingly dealt with every point he raised, he had the audacity to say that I "totally ignored" his scriptures. I won't waste another breath on anybody like that. I consider it throwing pearls before swine.

I'm a working man and don't have time to spend in front of a computer trying to reason for hours on end with people. Ellderwho seemed at first to be sincere and honest, but he was bluffing. Going back over his posts, that becomes quite obvious. What a fool I was for giving him the benefit of the doubt and allowing him even a minute of my time!

Herk

133

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1

by hooberus in

in this series i hope to discuss some common verses used by the watchtower to "disprove" the trinity and deity of the lord jesus christ.

the first one is 1 corinthians 8:6: .

"but to us there is but one god, the father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one lord jesus christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

herk

Ellderwho,

Then accuse me of not answering your scriptures, while totally ignoring mine. True I may have overlooked some examples you have given.

"While totally ignoring" yours!!!

Now I know what I'm dealing with, and I regret I ever got started with you. Have fun with yourself, Ellderwho.

Herk

133

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1

by hooberus in

in this series i hope to discuss some common verses used by the watchtower to "disprove" the trinity and deity of the lord jesus christ.

the first one is 1 corinthians 8:6: .

"but to us there is but one god, the father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one lord jesus christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

herk

Ellderwho,

In essence Im leary of people who say they have it all figured out.

So where do you draw the line? You seem to "have it all figured out" regarding the shape of the earth and your hand, but you deny others the privilege of having "it all figured out" religiously. In essence you are leary of Jesus and the apostles for their "self-proclaiming exculsiveness." So what's the point then of even reading the Bible if a person drawing conclusions from it "is setting himself 'up'"?

It seems to me you're saying Bible study is a waste of time, that learning truth from it is impossible. If you're not saying that, what are you saying? It seems to me like you're going in circles here.

There seems to be something extremely contradictory in your approach to things, Ellderwho. Earlier you argued vigorously in defense of the Trinity, and now you're saying that trying to figure it out reminds you of the cult you came out of. So, what is your point? Is the Trinity worth defending or isn't it? If it's not, why did you try so hard? What is your reason for getting involved in a discussion where you feel that a person arriving at conclusions "is setting himself 'up'"? I have to tell you that in all my seven decades of life, I don't think I've ever met anybody who goes around in circles like you seem to be doing.

As I indicated earlier, I don't condemn you or anybody if you're happy believing the Trinity. But I think you go a step too far when you condemn others as cultish simply because they don't agree with your personal concept of God and because they want something better than what you have to offer.

Herk

133

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 1

by hooberus in

in this series i hope to discuss some common verses used by the watchtower to "disprove" the trinity and deity of the lord jesus christ.

the first one is 1 corinthians 8:6: .

"but to us there is but one god, the father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one lord jesus christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

herk

Ellderwho,

I believe when "one" claims to have it all figured out, kinda reminds me of the cult I was raised in.

"All figured out" according to my understanding is equivalent to "absolute truth of a matter." According to what you wrote, "when 'one' claims to have" such, you are reminded of a cult. If you have a problem with the way I understood you, I'm interested in your explanation.

Herk