Posts by BackseatDevil

43

607 vs 587 BC - Cyrus Cylinder

by objectivetruth in

hi everyone,.

i'm researching 587 vs 607 for the date of the destruction of jerusalem... i'm not doing the research to prove or disprove anything about 1914, rather i'm looking at these dates in comparison to 1948 & 1967.. what is your view on relying on the cyrus cylinder, to accept 607 as the correct date of destruction... i know that there are many other factors.. but i'm trying to keep this portion of my research as simple as possible, so i'm primarily interested in the appropriateness of using the cylinders date of 537 + 70 = 607. one other question.. is it likely that both dates 587 & 607 have their own significance?.

BackseatDevil

So here's the funny thing about taking the bible out of the hands of the Christians and putting it back into the hands of the Jews. You get a more accurate SENSE of what is going on, although dates are someone likely to change. They don't care... what happened happened. But for JWs, life as they know it is DATE SPECIFIC.

THE FALL:

After the Battle of Carchemish in 605, Nebuchadnezzar set his sights on Jerusalem and started a series of sieges after King Jehoiakim stopped paying tribute on year 4 of Nebuchadnessar. This lead to an attack and the death of Jehoiakim on year 7 or Nebuchadnessar. There was a gradual taking over of the city from 597 all the way until 582. The "fall of Jerusalem" is technically around 586 when after King Jehoiakim is dead and his successors are sent into exile and Solomon's temple is destroyed (the fall of an icon like the temple would be a marking point for future generations).

THE RETURN:

SO... enter Cyrus who takes over Babylon in 539 and sometime within his first year he allows the Jews to return to Jerusalem, so between 539 and 538. Now, if you consider how long it took to get the Jews OUT of Jerusalem, you can imagine that it would take less time to get them back IN their dear city... but still take a couple of years, at least... past 537.

With the granting of occupation at one end, and the completion of occupation at the other end... the space in between would be vast. This is made apparent as they didn't start working on the foundation of the second temple until 520.

Contrary to fundamentalist beliefs, there are no specific dates to any events of this magnitude involving millions of people in the B.C. era. So to calculate ANYTHING off such would be denying the very nature of how people worked, moved, fought wars, and recovered from battles in that period of history.

Also " 537 + 70 = 607" is going BACKWARD in time.

34

WOW gotta check out this Charles Sinutko talk "Is It Proper to have doubts?"

by BU2B in

jw
friends

so manipulaitve.

.

http://www.printcentralandsigns.com/jwtalks/covisits/sinutko%20charles%20-%20is%20it%20proper%20to%20have%20doubts.mp3.

BackseatDevil

Exactly why would I want to listen to the words of false religion? The way witnesses view listenting to other churches is EXACTLY how I view listening to antyhig from them. They have nothing to offer but a waste of time and possible demon infestation.

Also, I had a friend that got pelted with words when he asked about the fallibility of the governing body. So... it doesn't really matter what the talk discusses, the answer is always "trust our leader without question." That will never change.

21

Do you believe there will be "Mass Suicides" within the BAC/JW community?

by booker-t in

jw
friends

as a "therapist trainee"(still have to take my license test) i worry about all of the religious people out there who might commit suicide if the rapture/armaggeddon does not materialize.

what if the bible is proven to be "a big fairy tale" will born again christians(bac) and jws kill themself?

i worry about some of my older jw relatives that have waited for armaggeddon for 50 years and are still waiting.

BackseatDevil

@perfect1

Well, obviously babies had no say in the matter at Jonestown. From what I have researched about Jonestown, no one was deceived, they knew the Kool Aid was poisoned. Sure, there is coercion in any social situation, but it came down to drinking or not drinking, and a few who refused to drink fled. Heavens Gate I admit I am less informed of.

My point is that religious groups do not commit suicide when all the members realize their belief system is false. Suicide happens as the ultimate act of faith.'

Take something else into consideration here.

There is a certain amount of self-perpetuated influence in all this (acts of faith) along with external amplifiers, or in some cases catalysts, that determine the ignition of fire in one's conversion - and thus their ability to do greater acts "of faith" becomes more likely.

Example: John Cedars at jwsurvey posed that if the governing body asked you to take a pill without question, would you? Of course the answer is that the majority would say “yes” because it's hypothetical and in the future... and we are all excellent human beings who follow instructions in the future.

So we have the mindset of acceptance of such, but how MEANINGFUL it is depends of the spectacle that is made upon entering their new religion. In this area, the Jehovah's Witnesses are at a disadvantage. You see, with born again christians, they are BORN AGAIN, it's a big process, a gigantic THING with singing and EMOTIONS and weeping... always with the weeping because at THAT MOMENT Jesus enters the heart. It's a BAM! moment. With smaller cults like Jonestown, the entering is strong and impressed with the need for separation that is SEVERE and DRASTIC with conversion being very enthusiastic... all very dramatic.

Jehovah's Witnesses don't have this. The studying process is gradual, the “light” being given is gradient... bad habits, friends, family, direction of financial flow, separation from the world and it's information, pastimes, association choices all happen very slowly over time. By the time they reach baptism (which... is rather dull in it's fanfare... just saying...) they have already converted... not with laying of the hands or public displays of tears., but with quiet prayer of dedication to god. And then once in the church, this concept continues as now the masses have a slow, continuous learning processes that never ceases and never really goes anywhere.

Their density of faith is built up over time... it's not something that is easily encapsulated into ONE event that can be used as a reference point in which to measure their distance from the world they left and their inclusion into the world they are in now. Also, in Jonestown they had something called 'submersion.' We get this when we go to concerts or sporting events – where we lose who we are individually to the dynamic of the group as a whole. Day to day, JWs still have one foot in “the world” with an oasis syndrome when they go to the meetings, only getting the submersion effect at their conventions and assemblies. Jonestown had their followers in a constant state of submersion ALL THE TIME.

So yes, suicide is an act of faith, but it's more the act of the MOMENTUM of faith than it is about actual faith itself. I call it faux-faith - all the other things that are linked to, decorate, and are explained under “faith” but are not actually faith... just humans psychologically responding to their environment.

21

Do you believe there will be "Mass Suicides" within the BAC/JW community?

by booker-t in

jw
friends

as a "therapist trainee"(still have to take my license test) i worry about all of the religious people out there who might commit suicide if the rapture/armaggeddon does not materialize.

what if the bible is proven to be "a big fairy tale" will born again christians(bac) and jws kill themself?

i worry about some of my older jw relatives that have waited for armaggeddon for 50 years and are still waiting.

BackseatDevil

I wouldn't put it past them, but for ritght now: no.

If you take the religion out of the religion, you get a very strong and very profitable milti-billion dollar publishing company. When there is a high volume of finances, the issue becomes less about the Almighty god and more about the Almightly dollar.

Putting the religion back in (if you were a witess you should remember this) you get the same sort of cognative hooks and induced "reward relacements" that act as a carrot on a stick in front of each witness. The structure of the set up has this going on perpetually... same with LDS and Scientology. There is no reason to ever bring the doomsday TODAY (via mass suicide) as more money can be made TOMORROW. So as a means of motivation (you should likewaise study the subject of motivation) putting a reward slightly in the future motivates people only to a certain amount... enough to give money and feel good about themselves, but NOT enough to give their lives (generally speaking). It's a delicate balance to give the impression of "urgency" while still allowing for a measure of "free will."

Jonestown (more than Heaven's Gate of the Branch Davidians) WAS a money maker, but only to a certain extent. There comes a point where the money dries up from this enclosed section they created and there is nothing else to do but level the structure to the ground and rebuild somewhere else. That's what three of the highest officials tried to do with Jonestown. In other cases, there is just an "illusion of validity" where money is not the issue, and the leaders will die alongside everyone else like Heaven's Gate and Branch Davidians.

This would not be the case with the witnesses. They have a really profitable thing going, and the 'carrot on the stick' method works extremely well with constant small "changes" to the structure to give a feeling of movement in the organization causing individuals to need to move as well too keep up. In actuality, no movement is being made, but money is. There is no reason to change that.

16

Cain and Abel: Literal or allegorical? Symbolic?

by Jon Preston in

jw
friends

i would love to hear a believers point on this!

from an interesting point of view:.

"jehovahs witnesses, and some others, believe that humans did not eat meat until after the flood.

BackseatDevil

ALSO, it should be noted that nowhere else in the bible is vegetation used, accepted, or expected as a sacrifice. For that reason it is probably more metaphor regarding the conflict between hunters and (the new process of) agriculture.

224

Atheists, here is a 'balls' question ---even for all---

by prologos in

it is very difficult to knock a ball into a hole (like golf), throw it into a receiver's hands (american football) intercept it and knock it over the fence (american cricket).

or to put a sattelite at the right time at the right speed in the right direction in the right place to have it orbit another body, so :.

what ingenious natural & process is it, than can get 9+ zillions bodies to get into the right orbit simultaniously or sequentially and have them remain there for billions of years?

BackseatDevil

In child psychology, there is a time frame when a child becomes self-aware, it happens in various stages, but eventually it develops. When it does, the child thinks the entire world is ALL ABOUT THEM. From that point, they progress into the “terrible twos” (as this happens around 15-24 months of age, typically).

NOT any different is a group of mammals that, through various stages, eventually became self-aware. When that happened, they thought that the entire universe (god, son, redemption, the planet, and all of life) was ALL ABOUT THEM. From that point, they either developed into humans who understood how we came into existence without the use of a creator and those who still think the world is all about them.

So, essentially, religious people who keep trying to be “scientific” with their logic will never truly make sense of the universe around them since are nothing more than children stuck in the “terrible twos” stage of life unwilling to just f**king grow up.

224

Atheists, here is a 'balls' question ---even for all---

by prologos in

it is very difficult to knock a ball into a hole (like golf), throw it into a receiver's hands (american football) intercept it and knock it over the fence (american cricket).

or to put a sattelite at the right time at the right speed in the right direction in the right place to have it orbit another body, so :.

what ingenious natural & process is it, than can get 9+ zillions bodies to get into the right orbit simultaniously or sequentially and have them remain there for billions of years?

BackseatDevil

I got that the general assumption here that we are in some sort of 'perfect' scenario right now – and the WTBTS and fundamentalists in general promote this concept.

Just because we are in a small and quiet neighborhood away from all the activity of the stars doesn't mean we are in perfect circumstance. The earth wobbles, the moon wobbles AND is drifting away, the sun's flares are dangerous, the universe itself is moving as a whole so shit keeps flying around (although not much in our area). When you take the lifetime of the stars and planets and the billions of years of conflict, you get something almost like the law of large numbers. After a while, you see a pattern of some things balancing out... but never FULLY balancing out. So just because someone takes 70 or 80 years out of the cosmos' lifespan and made it all about us doesn't mean it's actually ALL ABOUT US. And taking 10,000 years or so for man to evolve into what we are today is NOTHING when compared to the magnitude of the universe in whatever direction it is going, either to perfection or to destruction – it doesn't matter as it takes billions of years to get there and we are just talking about US - a millisecond on the cosmos calender.

We are all just one tiny sliver on one tiny speck with one tiny planet with one tiny human with one tiny thought that says... GOD DID THIS JUST FOR US.

Actually the laws of physics did it, and per the nature of movement, gravity, and studied by Isaac Newton we know even things in upheaval eventually settle to a happy medium... where animals like us can flourish and waste time overthinking things.

40

Are you a good person?

by Xanthippe in

jw
friends

something happened this week to make me think about this again.. it feels like all bets are off and i really don't know what a good person is anymore.. when i left the jws i was so sure i knew what it meant to be a good person.. this has been revised many times since.. i tend to favour the utilitarian approach, the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.. sometimes you have to stick your neck out and say this is not good for me no matter what others may feel they need from me.. no idea where i'm going with this maybe this is a breakthrough in my life or maybe that glass of wine was stronger than i thought!.

any thoughts?.

BackseatDevil

@Xanthippe "good" is subjective. What is good for a cat is bad for the mouse. What is good for the mouse is bad for a home owner. You see where this pattern leads.

Just and decent are subjective but less so as they go beyond personal boundaries and and more linked across different domains and are not limited to the world that we are personally invested in (as a cat, a mouse, or a home owner). It's more about the bigger picture and our part in it and less about what we want to be or what we present to the outside world.

LOOKING like a good person i and shiny. BEING a good person is sometime dirty and hard. PRODUCING good can sometimes be a balance between worlds of light and dark. That's where I come in. "Dark" is my specialty. "Light" is my goal although it is not always my path.

40

Are you a good person?

by Xanthippe in

jw
friends

something happened this week to make me think about this again.. it feels like all bets are off and i really don't know what a good person is anymore.. when i left the jws i was so sure i knew what it meant to be a good person.. this has been revised many times since.. i tend to favour the utilitarian approach, the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people.. sometimes you have to stick your neck out and say this is not good for me no matter what others may feel they need from me.. no idea where i'm going with this maybe this is a breakthrough in my life or maybe that glass of wine was stronger than i thought!.

any thoughts?.

BackseatDevil

@Xanthippe "good" is subjective. What is good for a cat is bad for the mouse. What is good for the mouse is bad for a home owner. You see where this pattern leads.

Just and decent are subjective but less so as they go beyond personal boundaries and and more linked across different domains and are not limited to the world that we are personally invested in (as a cat, a mouse, or a home owner). It's more about the bigger picture and our part in it and less about what we want to be or what we present to the outside world.

LOOKING like a good person i and shiny. BEING a good person is sometime dirty and hard. PRODUCING good can sometimes be a balance between worlds of light and dark. That's where I come in. "Dark" is my specialty. "Light" is my goal although it is not always my path.

51

Is the U.N. preparing to attack Religion

by confusedandalone in

about 5 minutes ago i get an article emailed to me from my mother telling me that i need to find a way to get back to jehovah and his saving arm... she read an article in a reputable newspaper that all the friends are using to show that its not just jehovahs witnesses who see religion about to get attacked by the u.n.. it concludes with a link to the article and her desire for me to please read it in light of my recent situation.. .

here is the article http://www.examiner.com/article/is-the-un-preparing-to-attack-religion.

the writer bill underwood is a jehovah's witness.

BackseatDevil

Also (I added this comment) "war on religion" is absurd because something like "religion" is not able to be attacked. Think of George W. Bush's "War on Terror." THAT was a complete mess, and that was with the most powerful military force on the planet. No one can war against concepts or philosophies and be successful. It doesn't work.