thanks for sharing your experiences and ideas about how people leave.
themes were that people leave when they are ready, when they take an honest look at their beliefs and open their mind up to information from outside of the organisation, and i guess, other personal factors.
the timing and individual are important here.
So it seems, to sum up your replies, that fear (of emotional costs, annihilation, etc) and security (knowing I am in the truth etc) are some of the predemoninate motivating forces? I think maybe pride too (we are better [more moral, more wise] than non JWs).
Nathan
thanks for sharing your experiences and ideas about how people leave.
themes were that people leave when they are ready, when they take an honest look at their beliefs and open their mind up to information from outside of the organisation, and i guess, other personal factors.
the timing and individual are important here.
Thanks for sharing your experiences and ideas about how people leave. Themes were that people leave when they are ready, when they take an honest look at their beliefs and open their mind up to information from outside of the organisation, and I guess, other personal factors. The timing and individual are important here. I guess here is the value of making quality written material accessible as can be found on the internet.
I guess in talking with JWs maybe the most to hope for, particularly since I don't know where they are privately in their commitment, might be to plant seeds. Someone suggested to be patient and subtle. That makes a lot of sense. Forcing views fosters defensiveness and further entrenching in one's views.
I consider myself an ecclectic counsellor. I do more supervisory/admin/training work these days but still have the opportunies to keep my counselling practice up. I have been trained in at least 6 different therapeutic models and my approach is to adopt the model most appropriate for the individual. As my counselling is predominantly single-session counselling, I tend mostly to use a brief cognitive behavioural / solution oriented model.
As far as change in counselling goes, there is a model of change, particularly useful for addictions. It goes something like this, precontemplative (I don't have a problem), contemplative (maybe I got a problem), action (I have a problem and I will work on it), maintainence (I will keep doing what is needed and watch out for relapse), and then relapse (returning to former problem behaviour). It is suggested to evaluate where people are on this change and adjust the counselling interventions accordingly. In the first two stages the counsellor seeks to raise awareness / anxiety, explore benefits and not-so good elements of problem behaviour, tap into hopes, build confidence and build importance for change. In the others he focuses more on action. I think JWs are in various degrees of this change process, so our outreach efforts should be adapted accordingly.
Someone raised the point that you cannot help a person change who is not motivated to or is mandated. I don't believe this. A counsellor can people explore what they really want, what blocks them from what they want, the parts of them that are okay about their behaviour and the parts of them that are not okay with it, how they can get what they want (happiness, security, love, power) without the negative consequences of their dysfunctional behaviour. A drug addict wants to feel good, or not feel bad, so he engages in his drug taking behaviour. It works in the short term but often in the long term undermines these goals. Counsellors help people want to change, and then try to assist them to change. They try to do this respectfully rather than manipulatively. They attempt to value the hopes of the client, not impose their own goals on them. We display empathy, not criticism. They try to get the client to examine their behaviour to see if that if it is really getting them what they want. If we try to impose our values on them, disrespect the JW, or try to manipulate them, we are not being respectful and we can expect resistance. We are no better than the WT. Maybe adapting the counselling values to this context might be useful.
What motivates the JW? A desire for divine acceptance? Social acceptance? Fear of loosing loved ones. Fear of being classed as 'bad' (shame avoidance). Or stated positively needing security? Needing acceptance? Wanting comfort or ease (someone to do the thinking for them)? I don't know. Maybe exploring what motivates the JW lies a key to helping them want to change.
BTW I live in Brisbane, Australia. I notice Ed also lives there. Who knows, we might be neighbours!
These are just some of my rambling ideas. Maybe others might build off them.
Regards
Nathan
someone, i believe it may have been farkel, suggested that there are no more meaty doctrinal issues to be discussed on this board.
that being the case, i would like to solicit the help of the more capable posters on something that could be of tremendous help to, not just myself, but perhaps other lurkers as well.. the requirement is for someone like myself who is still actively attending only because of a close family member or friend who is still in.
assuming that individual, like many jdubs, has a couple of nagging doubts, there is a need to introduce the real truth about the truth.
I applaud any ideas for trying to assist JWs to see the errors of their beliefs and practices. I further applaud anyone trying to assist JWs into a relationship with God based on Truth.
In your idea, I like the way you are considering tactics that may increase the chance of prompting the JW to think about these issues. Preparing a written tool is powerful, and being creative in the way of getting it to the JWs attention I think is worth developing. I also note some posts raising the ethical issues involved such as the ethics of spamming them (even if done considering the person's best interest). What to say, how to say it, and how to deliver it, whom should deliver it, all need to be carefully considered (letting ethical principles also guide us). How can it's impact be maximised ethically? I see potential in the idea that is worth brainstorming. It could develop into another powerful tool for helping the captives freed.
Don't get discouraged. Keep working on it. Who knows where these ideas might take you? I am thrilled to hear people putting their heads together and being inspired to help others. Keep it up.
Regards
Nathan
most people i know basically believe that jws are unconvertible from their faith.
this, i believe, comes from their dissappointments and frustrations at being able to convince jws to convert, or even just to leave.
i work in the counselling field and we have a similar problem with 'difficult' clients who also don't seem to respond to anything.
Most people I know basically believe that JWs are unconvertible from their faith. This, I believe, comes from their dissappointments and frustrations at being able to convince JWs to convert, or even just to leave.
I work in the counselling field and we have a similar problem with 'difficult' clients who also don't seem to respond to anything. These clients also lead counsellors to become cynical as to these clients character, their ability, their 'true' motivation, or whatever meaning they can attach to the non-responding part. (Actually I think the JWs also talk about those who are resistant to the Truth). In counselling, when the counsellor looses hope and belief that the person can change is a high predictor that they will not be able to help this person any further. Cynicism lends itself to despair. Where there is hope, there is possibility.
A modern philosophy in counselling is to stop focussing on the non-change parts and focus on the parts that do change and ask "What works that seem to help these people that do change?" - and do more of it. What is it that works in successful therapy? When this is answered, the advice is "do more of it."
I know from the ex-JWs out there that there are many who have actually left the WT. Some of these people would have been labelled "hard nuts to crack" and "impossible" by those who at one time tried to persuade them but without success. Yet, they are out now.
I would be most interested in finding out the common factors of what helped people towards making a decision to leave, and actually leaving the WT. What role did others have in this? What might have assisted this? What things were obstacles or hinderances? How were these overcome? What role did the 'outsider' (that is person trying win over the JW) have in this? What were the personal qualities of the 'outsider'? What were some of the signs to an outsider that a JW is having doubts, and how can this knowledge maximise our effectiveness in bringing these up in a manner that it is 'safe' enough for the JW to discuss or consider? For those who have helped a JW out, what are the factors that you believed 'worked' with you? If someone was involved in helping you out, What did they do that was helpful? What things seemed to help the JW open his mind and what things seem to trigger it shut. I can't answer these because I have not been instrumental, to my knowledge, in leading someone out, neither am I an ex-JW.
I imagine that ex-JWs on this board might be able to give clues as to this. Hopefully I might be able to use some of the ideas of what was most helpful, to translate them into my contacts with a JW couple in their next visit.
Will be looking forward to your feedback.
Regards
Nathan
i had some jws visit me today and meet for the first time.
the time has left me feeling sad and confused.
i learnt some interesting things about these two individuals.. firstly, the man launched straight into his 'good news'.
It was really great to read all your comments and responses. I've saved them for future ideas to help in discussion with my JW friends. Wow what a friendly and lively board. I don't normally write to these boards but yesterday I felt like I needed a debrief, so thanks all. Some of you picked up that I am not an ex-JW. You are correct. I have read a number of books and articles on the JWs, and particularly studied the mind control elements. I haven't seen JWs for ages so I had almost forgotten about them. Mind control on paper is one thing but I could have sworn I encountered the real thing and so blatently obvious.
I spoke to the JW on the phone after the visit and apologised for some of my cornering them and insinuations in my comments. I was out of line and on reflection I treated them disrespectfully. I felt attacked when they labelled all Christians the types of things they did. But that is no excuse to be disrespectful. The JW offered to take me through a book study of Knowledge (he called it a bible study) but I declined (it is the most loaded book I think I have skimmed through). I told him that I value the Bible (he said he did too) and that it was more important to read the Bible firstly and sometimes other books act like coloured glasses that distort the true picture. He agreed. So next time he comes over, I am planning on asking him to study one of his favourites, the book of Revelation, and hopefully we can exchange ideas respectfully and maybe both learn something. I'm thinking of negotiating a rule and only reading what is in the text - anything outside of the text are simply ideas but no springboard to pushing either of our own doctrines. My intention is to help him to get to know the real Bible and maybe as he studies it see the discrepencies between WT teaching. I have no idea how it will turn out and even if I will get this far, but I think that as a fellow human being whom Christ died for, it is worth a try. Hopefully God's Spirit will guide him closer to Christ. I'll let you guys know how i go.
BTW - Do JWs ever visit these boards any more. Last time I read them (a few years ago) there were lots. I can't recall seeing any JW comments on it.
Also, think that is a great site on listing all those JW quotes. Mate, I couldn't imagine any JW reading all those quotes and still having confidence in the organisation.
Regards
Nathan Beel
i had some jws visit me today and meet for the first time.
the time has left me feeling sad and confused.
i learnt some interesting things about these two individuals.. firstly, the man launched straight into his 'good news'.
I had some JWs visit me today and meet for the first time. The time has left me feeling sad and confused. I learnt some interesting things about these two individuals.
Firstly, the man launched straight into his 'good news'. (I thought "Pleased to meet you too.") So I stopped him and decided to ask him to tell me a little bit about himself and his wife (also there). I wanted to get to know these people, not just hear a sales pitch. After one or two sentences he was straight back into discussing prophecy, end times and how bad this world is. ("OK let's stay impersonal then. Dissappointing but I can live with this.")
I listened and within 15 seconds of talking he had managed to disagree with at least 10 doctrines of Christianity, after listening and listening, finally when he caught some air I asked him to explain where in the Bible one of these doctrines had come from. He received great delight rattling of a verse quickly and moving back into the big picture once again. Change of tack. I challenged him that Jesus is not the archangel Michael because... and to told him the verses and refuted his evidence. He changed the topic, now about the earthly inheritance, and I refuted this from scripture, then the two classes, and 144000 etc. Everytime he came to a dead end he would either change the subject or his wife came in and said "It really doesn't matter. As long as you are in the right organisation and you have the right fruit, which no other religious organisation has."
I brought up about the doctrinal changes that had occured in the century, and they dismissed these by saying "At least we are trying and the light is getting brighter." I highlighted that this does not account for contradictions and how what they are teaching today might be heresy tomorrow. That did not seem to matter. Once again they reinforced that doctrine was not so important but what really matters is they do not kill other Christians but love each other. So I learned that what one believes is not so important but as long as they love God and love each other (by never killing another even in war) - that's the main criteria. Interesting. There must be hope now for all religions as long as they are committed pasivists.
I learned also that all of Christianity tolerates abortion and immorality and JWs don't. It's also the Christians doing the killing in the wars (I wondered who I had killed before, and then I even wondered how many my wife had killed). Christendom is also behind bombing Iraq and all the innocent people. (and I always thought it was the politicians - what is my pastor keeping from me). No politians are Christians but only give lip-service. (I'd love to know where they get their mind reading tools from.) And one 'fact' that blew me out of the water was that 95% of all Christianity teach that something apocolyptic happened in 1914. (I must have only come into contact with only the other 5% - where have I been all these years.) All the Christians are corrupt (she must have been meaning everybody else because as she left she said to myself and my wife that we had a good heart and therefore OK - does this mean God will save me even if I don't convert - cool)
So that is why I am sad. Changing the rules of the argument when 'loosing', black and white thinking, huge generalisations, and fabricating reality - all to bolster faith in their organisation regardless of what it contradicted in reality or in contrary scriptural evidence. I hope they come back. I would like to study the Scriptures with them and let God speak to all of us (and hopefully bypass our religious tradition lenses). Somehow I don't have a lot of confidence they will return. I am praying God to will draw them to Himself.
Nathan
