Posts by joe134cd

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

Vanderhoven7: You have missed the whole point. At least read the email that I have cut and pasted from an ex Mormon bishop, Simon Southerton. You need to watch the the video that was initially posted. That 16.5 million is so inflated it’s almost laughable. The example was given of the pacific nation of Tonga. With the counting methods used by the church, there can only be two outcomes.

(1)Tonga could end up having more affiliated mormons, than what are alive on the island.

or

(2) The lds has got a massive problem with apostasy with its members leaving to join with another Christian denomination.

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

I totally agree with you. Here are some quotes, I’ve heard from the past, that would sum up what you have said.

The bonnets may be different but the engines are the same.

Mormons are more fanciful but JWs are more dangerous.

Mormons are JWs weirder older cousins.

Doctrine aside, I agree that the JWs are more destructive. There would be few here that would disagree. Based on life style I would actually choose to be Mormon. My life may of turned out much different to what it is now.

Despite the “JW world view been more dangerous” wouldnt this be testimony to how well they have taken their message to the world. I suppose a measure of loyalty that it’s members have to a cause, even if it is wrong.

The point I was trying to make here isn’t, how a like or not a like they are. It’s a matter of membership. I think it’s been clearly demonstrated that the JWs have a bigger, more active and engaged membership. It’s impressive when compared to other more established and wealthy organisations, who by rights should have a bigger and more loyal customer base. This is simply not the case. Hare and tortoise really.

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

Ok I E-mailed Simon Southerton ( the person been interviewed in the video. Below is his response. I am posting this with his permission.

<[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Joe
I'm glad you got in touch.

I have watched the decline of the LDS Church with fascination for 20+ years. It genuinely pleases me to see its decline because it is one of the most damaging cults on earth, in terms of ripping families apart. For several years I have believed the JWs take out top spot on that shameful league table, because there are far more active JWs than Mormons. I'm glad you have escaped it. Scientology does more damage to individual families, but there are so few of them they hardly rate a mention.

I have received a huge amount of feedback from exmormons and attending Mormons since I posted about this a few weeks ago. You might enjoy reading my initial post on my personal Facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/simon.southerton/posts/10223782428822022 I also got a huge response on reddit. I managed to distract American exmormons from their stupid memes for a day or two. https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/owrtxm/my_lds_church_growth_hobby_horse/

A good friend of mine in Utah told me that a LDS General Authority had admitted to an LDS friend that global attendance was around 25% or about 4 million. In my view that is overly optimistic. There are many countries around the world where attendance is 10%. The UK is the LDS heartland in Europe. If the UK is now about 14.5% then the global average outside of North America is definitely no more than 15%. The US will be around 30% (max) so there is no way the global average is 25%. After the pandemic I would not be surprised to see a massive one off drop of about 10%.

So in terms of bums on seats, I reckon the Mormons have about 3.5 million a week prior to the pandemic and it must be heading dangerously close to 3 million. Its is staggering how well you can hide a big lie when you have unlimited financial resources, a well oiled PR department, and a membership who are disturbingly incurious.

I would be interested in how successful the JWs have been with Pacific Islanders? Almost 40% of Australian Mormons are from Tonga and Samoa. Another 15% or so would be of Maori ancestry. The Mormon Church seems to align very well with their culture, but most are Mormons for tribal, rather than spiritual reasons. This will not lead to stable growth in Australia. In fact I predict that it will collapse dramatically within the next 5 to 10 years.

I'd also be interested to hear how well the JWs are tracking globally and in NZ and Australia. Hopefully it is southwards.

Best regards

Simon

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

Like slim I have been to various churches since I have left the JWs. The thing that intrigues me isn’t so much their beliefs, but the culture that exists with in these religions. In doing so, I have found that the JWs are by no means unique in their beliefs and how they behave. Three observations really stand out to me. I was stunned when I went to the Christadelphians society, and was able to use JW talk and doctrine (that I thought was unique to the JWs) and they knew exactly what I was talking about. The SDA also believe that Michael the Archangle is Jesus. LDS /JW / iglasea ni christo (INC) certainly gauge their success by the size of their membership. Hence, we have these huge lds temples been built that cannot be supported by local membership . At the same time the INC were boasting about a JW assembly hall purchased in Spain and various buildings around the world, because of increasing membership. The reality is the lds isn’t growing and the Spanish assembly hall purchase was the result of migration from the Philippines, rather than real growth in amongst the Spanish community.

For the record I am certainly no JW apologist. But I have a degree of annoyance with the ignorance that is out there. Mr JWFacts has a section dedicated to how badly the JWs have done statistically. But really has failed to acknowledge that the lds have done a lot worse and the JWs could be on par with the SDA. Don’t forget the LDS and SDA have a better PR and are significantly more wealthy. Although I dislike the JW religion, I have to admire how it has out performed, it’s religious competitors, both with its growth and it preaching work. Sure they are in decline, but there are others who are taking greater hits. Here is another posting I made a few months back on the same topic.

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5926017217593344/lds-statistics-extension-may-suggest-that-jws-could-bigger-more-engaged-membership

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

1830-1879= 49

I initially said it was a 50 year head start.

1879 - 1896 = 17

It was 17 years after the first printing of Zions Wt that Utah gained statehood.

OK let’s say, for arguments sake, the start time for the LDS/ JW were the same. It still makes no difference as the JWs have still significantly out preformed the lds by 200%.

Here is another scenario. Let’s say that of the 8.23 million JWs, a third are PIMO publishers and have sporadic meeting attendance. The Mormon church had a 10 year head start.

8,230,000 x 33% = 5,514,100.

JWs are still up 1.5 - 2.5 million members. Even with a 50% PIMO rate they break even with the lds. I would strongly doubt the PIMO rate would be any where near the 50% mark. I think it would be generous making it 10% PIMO.

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

Yes I agree pistolpet. I think wt net worth is very modest in comparison to their counterparts. It depends on how success is measured. If money is the gauge then certainly the Mormon church. If it’s winning people’s hearts and minds, then, at least superficially, it’s watchtower.

This is a mistake, wt made, that has now come back to bite them. I firmly believe at its core, Wt was never about the money, but more in service or time dedicated by its members. Because the world was soon to end, what was the point in investing money in companies. They believed that Jehovah was its backer, so Holy Spirit was going to pay the bills, and not compulsory tithing. Publishing, and free labour, were their income stream, that had been hugely successful. Unlike the Mormon church, the Wt income stream has gone, they made no preparation for the event of this, and are now resorting to asset stripping to stay afloat.

The lds on the other hand, has made some very wise decisions, which inevitably may mean it out lasting wt with a smaller customer base. They have encouraged large families. It was stated on the video that mormons having 3 child families may be the only thing keeping the membership from free fall in the United States. They in force compulsory tithing, and their is a lot of social stigma for non compliance. It’s pushed education, political involvement, pro internet, etc. It’s brought stocks, shears, and property. Wt if anything was very anti these things and Is now paying the price.

The point I’m trying to make, and why I’m so passionate about this, is that Wt has done outstandingly well. It a myth that the preaching work hasn’t been successful. It has outperformed the lds and , I suspect, equal to the SDA, if anything. What makes the difference, is what it’s been compared against. Sure you can quote pew survey with graphs, but it can only go so far, in that it can’t gauge people minds and hearts, to the point that they want to be actively involved.

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

Joseph Smiths first vision was in 1820. First edition of Zions watchtower 1879.

1820-1879 = 59 years.

4 January 1896 Utah was granted statehood by the US Government.

Im searching for an explanation as to why watchtower has been so successful, as apposed to their Mormon counterparts. Could it be that a JW is more inclined to physically go because of social influence e.g Sunning by a community etc.

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

If the SDA do have a bigger membership, the difference would only be by a couple of million at the most. As Slim commented the more accurate size of the JWs would lie between the publisher amount and those attending the memorial. I think the truer JW membership would be around the 16 million mark. If you were to factor in the attendance of those who truly believe the writings of Ellen G White you could also come to the same figure for the SDA. Let’s just take a rough estimate and say they are the same.

The point that really comes home to me with the JW / LDS comparison, is that having more money doesn’t necessarily mean more members. Think on this for a moment. Mormonism had a 50 year head start on JWisim. By the time of the first printing of Zions Watchtower, Utah had been granted statehood by the US government. So Wt in the course of 200 years since the inception of Mormonism, not only closed a 50 year gap, but was able to increase its activity rate by 200%. They also done it on a fraction of the money that both the LDS and SDA has. In the last 20-25 years Wt is certainly in decline, but over the course of its history, with all its scandals and false doctrines, their performance would probably make Microsoft or apple computer green with envy.

I also think Mormon members are more prepared to put up with the nonsense of their leaders e.g fudging numbers, and hiding facts. Could you imagine the outrage, if Wt opened a $5 billion dollar, church funded, shopping complex. While Tony Morris, cutting the ribbon on the opening day said “let’s go shopping.”

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

I would like to correct an error I made. The activity rates for the LDS could lie any where between 3-4 million members. I've broken the video into time slots to give a more definitive and direct answer. The video is fascinating, and may force us to rethink our position on JW statistics. I would hope that MR JWFACTS will read this as well. The real discussion on statistics is from the 21min - 1:45 mark

But since everywhere isn't Scotland, your “extensive local research” is indicative of nothing more than just that, “local research”.

21-31min A similar observation is made, to Slim, with regard to church attendance. The exception is that he was a Mormon Bishop covering two Australian states.

i have argued many times that number of congregations is the best statistic for comparison for number reasons.

50min - 1hour They support slims argument on counting congregations.

1:33 - 1:44 Activity rates in the UK at around 14.7% of the 188,000 members claimed by the LDS. Interestingly he makes the statement that there could be 30,000 active members in Australia. Considering that the Australian JW figure is 67,000, could reflect JW membership is considerably higher at an international level.

1:03 - 1:07 If it wasn't for Africa the LDS would of been in decline 4-5 years ago. In recent times the LDS has only just managed to grow by 1%. I think the JWs have grown by just over 1%. Lets just say their growth is comparable.

1:30 - 1:32 Units opening and closing around the world. Europe in decline. Growth in Africa. Mixed bag in north America perhaps indicating inaccurate counting by the church. South America not looking good. Asia in decline.

00:42 - 00:47 Phantom LDS members in Polynesia. Tonga could end up having more LDS than what live on the island due to inaccurate counting methods.

00:36 - 00:39 unnecessary buildings been built that cant be supported by the local members.

1:45 - 1:50 Its wealth. It has annual income of $US400 billion that it generates off its assets. WT is nothing compared to wealth of the LDS.

48

JWs are bigger and more successful than the Mormon church

by joe134cd in

just saw the following you tube video.

it’s 3 hours long, but thoroughly interesting.

if you want to save yourself 3 hours, basically the active mormon church is about 3 million.

joe134cd

Slim- Are you implying that

(1)Wt is been totally honest and transparent with its counting methods. The definition of membership, and been counted, differs between the two faiths.

(2) Wt is been dishonest, with its counting, in that it down plays its membership rather than pumping the numbers up, when compared to the LDS.